A perfectionist might say that "poor" is more akin in rhyme to "sewer" whereas "door" is more akin to "pour". But it is a very nice distinction and few would comment about the rhymes in a limerick.

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few would comment about the rhymes in a limerick.

Boy, you don't spend much time at the OEDILF do you?

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Boy, you don't spend much time at the OEDILF do you?

Even there it is the minority of self-appointed "rhyme mavens" that argue that pronunciation is fixed and inflexible and that only their own pronunciation can be correct. Similarly it is the minority of "stress-mavens" who claim that the stress and inflection on any word is as indicated in the granite-carved lexicography of their preferred dictionary.

Yes, Kalleh, I pronounce "poor" as "pohr," and I pronounce "poor," "pore" and "pour" identically.
Here are some other words that rhyme with "poor" and "door" to me: bore, boar, core, for, fore, gore, whore, lore, more, nor, oar, roar, soar, tore, war, yore.

Hope I haven't started anything ; all I wanted to do was to say happy birthday!!!

Re: OEDILF, I remember David Schildkret insisting that pronunciations must be left up to the author--that whatever was the standard pronunciation in that person's point of origin had to be accepted by the WEs as the way it was pronounced for the purposes of a specific limerick. Otherwise no limerick would ever be approved there, because editors would not be able to agree on what was a perfect rhyme. As it is, it takes them awhile anyway!

Wordmatic.

wordmatic...
all those words are perfect rhymes for me too!

Well, first of all, let me be very clear on something...I'm not criticizing the rhyming of "poor" and "door;" if that's how a lot of you say them, so be it. I am just surprised because, to my knowledge, I have never heard anyone say "poor" to rhyme with "door" before. That's all. Total shock. It would be similar to my saying that "bat" and "head" rhymed. Wouldn't that surprise you? I surely respect that those 2 words rhyme for all of you. Those of you who have experienced my workshopping on OEDILF know that I am very flexible about those sorts of things.

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Even there it is the minority of self-appointed "rhyme mavens" that argue that pronunciation is fixed and inflexible and that only their own pronunciation can be correct. Similarly it is the minority of "stress-mavens" who claim that the stress and inflection on any word is as indicated in the granite-carved lexicography of their preferred dictionary.

But you see, Richard, everyone has his or her pet peeve on OEDILF or anywhere. There are also grammar mavens and definition mavens. People just have different ways of making their mark, and I think that is good. It provides for the diversity in workshopping that we see.

As for David Schildkret (and boy do I miss him!), I am not sure I completely agree with him, if indeed he said that. What happens when you just plain aren't pronouncing a word correctly? For example, I have trouble with the word "tour;" it comes out "ter," which isn't quite right. While I agree that different pronunciations should be (and are) accepted there, I don't think that anything should go.

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It would be similar to my saying that "bat" and "head" rhymed.

I agree that "bat" can't rhyme with "head"
No more could, say, "cat" rhyme with "dead".
But "poor" rhymes with "door"
In the UK for sure.
And that's all I actually said.

Any speech therapists on board? This must be a dicey area for them.. Where do you draw the line between making sure someone speaks well enough to communicate.. [i.e. speech defect] and trying to help them fit in socially or something [i.e. ter] instead of tour; nucular instead of nuclear? A generation or more ago, this was a straightforward proposition; you & I had friends who needed help with a stutter, or perhaps with an uncoordinated tongue as happens in Downs syndrome. However, mykids all went to Mr.Speech Therapist in kindergarten until they could say "thumb" (not fumb)-- an articulation which would have happened on its own 6 mos. later!

I don't mean to suggest "ter"-pronouncers are being sent to specialists... YET! But, as a for lang teacher for the very young, I've observed that children pronounce exactly what they hear. Their ears/neural systems are far sharper than ours, and this is the age at which their future pattern is set. It intrigues me to think that the speech pathology field might expand soon enough to include, say, sounds which are unpleasant to the upper-middle class American ear!! (shades of Eliza Doolittle)

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Originally posted by Richard English:

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It would be similar to my saying that "bat" and "head" rhymed.

I agree that "bat" can't rhyme with "head"
No more could, say, "cat" rhyme with "dead".
But "poor" rhymes with "door"
In the UK for sure.
And that's all I actually said.

So Richard says "poor" rhymes with "door".
Well I disagree! What is more,
I have never heard
It rhymed with that word.
He surely can't claim "poor" is "pour".

I know of no standard UK accent in which "poor" and "pour" are homophones.

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I know of no standard UK accent in which "poor" and "pour" are homophones.

Not exact, I agree. But pretty close in the south - especially in Cockney and south London accents.

Just catching up with the poor-pour-tour-ter discussion. Kalleh, David Schildkret weighed in during a workshop on my "Breeziness" lim, in an early version of which I had rhymed "Jerry," "airy" and "scary." They all rhymed for me, but certainly not for several others. Someone suggested "Mary," and that didn't rhyme for some of the group either. I was totally surprised. David weighed in to the effect that Jerry and airy rhyme for half of all U.S. residents and that we tend to accommodate such regional differences at OEDILF. In the end, I switched the name to "Blair" and made it rhyme with "air," and no one seemed to have a problem with it!

As for a question you raised elsewhere, that you rhyme "poor" with "doer" and "door" with "more." You asked whether I would rhyme "more" with "doer," and I would not. I would also rhyme "more" with "door." I rhyme "doer" with "sewer," and I suppose the only m-word I'd rhyme with "doer" and "sewer" is a cow, as in "moo-er!"

WM

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I've observed that children pronounce exactly what they hear.

Well, Bethree, I might disagree with that statement, at least to a point. While I agree that children learn to pronounce based on what they hear, what explains differences within families then? Our first 2 kids (especially the oldest) were quite accurate with their pronunciations. Our youngest, though, mispronounced words all the time, and for a long time. I don't know how old she was when she was still saying, "renember?" One of our favorites was "Housen Play" for "license plate." Perhaps it's the leniency that comes with the third child, but it surely didn't seem to me that we spoke to any of our kids differently.

Wordmatic, I do renember () the Mary/marry/merry discussion on OEDILF. If I recall, that was close to the time that David left the project. I do agree that we have to give in to dialects, regional pronunciations, etc., there. I am just saying that there is a point where we can't accept just anything. It's hard, though, I know.

There is a bit of a difference between "doer" and "poor" to me, too. I elongate the "er," which doesn't happen with "poor." The same happens with "sewer," which rhymes with "doer" for me. You know the beer Coors? Well, that rhymes with "poor" with me, if you delete the "s." There aren't many perfect rhymes for me. I checked rhymezone.com, and none of theirs works perfectly for me, though "moor" is best. Others they cite are: cure, lure, pure, sure, tour (that might, if I said it right!), your, your're.

By the way, Mary/marry/merry all rhyme to me. So do Jerry/airy/scary.

Well, Kalleh, you bring up an interesting point! I had a brother (not the youngest sib) who seemed to have his very own lingo as he learned to talk; I still remember "dibb-ih-days" was "slippers" ?! He did turn out to be dyslexic, but then the other dyslexic sib did no such thing so there you go. And of course I have teeny French students who do a sort of "jibbertejabber" approximation of phrases they're asked to repeat. But they do get the vowel and consonant sounds and intonation exactly right-- the 'accent', in other words.

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You know the beer Coors? Well, that rhymes with "poor" with me,

How very appropriate.

It also is a near-rhyme for "curse" (which is what you'll do the next morning if you're unwise enough to drink the stuff).

Well I know you are joking (I don't want you to think I don't understand that British humor ), Richard, but "curse," without the "s," and "poor" don't rhyme for me. The sound is "er" with "curse" and "oor" with "poor," for me.

"Curse" and "Coors" are not rhymes. But they are near rhymes - which is what I said they were.

They are quite different to me. On OEDILF they have a poll about the soft and hard "s." I don't know which is which, but that's part of the difference for me, I think. The other part is the "er" sound versus the "oo" sound.

Unfortunately, this birthday thread has become a pronunciation thread. However, it seems the right place to post a comment from QT from the Chicago Sun Times today; he says, "Tour" rhymes with "dour." That's not the case with me, but then I've never been able to pronounce "tour," as I said above. Do those words rhyme for you?

We really should move this this conversation to another area!

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"Tour" rhymes with "dour." That's not the case with me, but then I've never been able to pronounce "tour," as I said above. Do those words rhyme for you?

No. They are close but wouldn't pass muster in one of my limericks.

"Dour" rhymes with "sour" to me, which is nothing like "tour" or "your" in my vocabulary.

I've heard others pronounce dour to rhyme with tour, but I also pronounce dour to rhyme with sour and tower and glower and hour!

Now back to Birthdays:

It's June, and we have two on the list, just as a reminder for those inspired to write deep thoughts and gentle poesy (so's you can work ahead on your masterpieces): Jerry Thomas on the 8th and Blues on the 20th!

Wordmatic

Happy Birthday to Our Friend JT:
A stalwart of Word Games is he!
As a luau-fly, he's cute
In a grass skirt, to boot;
Look out, Pele: his leis are not free!

Happy Birthday, one day late--but maybe JIT (just in time) because of the time difference? --to Jerry, our Hawiaan transplant and beacon of good retirement living!

Wordmatic,
Birthday Archive Librarian

Another day, another missed birthday! I am sorry, Jerry! I hope it was a good one.

Our Jerry's been here since forever;
His posts are so funny and clever.
So how could I miss
His birthday...Oh hiss!
Don't hate me, dear Jerry...no never!

Happy Birthday, Jer! So sorry to be late.