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A perfectionist might say that "poor" is more akin in rhyme to "sewer" whereas "door" is more akin to "pour". But it is a very nice distinction and few would comment about the rhymes in a limerick.


Richard English
 
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quote:
few would comment about the rhymes in a limerick.


Boy, you don't spend much time at the OEDILF do you?
 
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Boy, you don't spend much time at the OEDILF do you?

Even there it is the minority of self-appointed "rhyme mavens" that argue that pronunciation is fixed and inflexible and that only their own pronunciation can be correct. Similarly it is the minority of "stress-mavens" who claim that the stress and inflection on any word is as indicated in the granite-carved lexicography of their preferred dictionary.


Richard English
 
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Yes, Kalleh, I pronounce "poor" as "pohr," and I pronounce "poor," "pore" and "pour" identically.
Here are some other words that rhyme with "poor" and "door" to me: bore, boar, core, for, fore, gore, whore, lore, more, nor, oar, roar, soar, tore, war, yore.

Hope I haven't started anything Eek; all I wanted to do was to say happy birthday!!!

Re: OEDILF, I remember David Schildkret insisting that pronunciations must be left up to the author--that whatever was the standard pronunciation in that person's point of origin had to be accepted by the WEs as the way it was pronounced for the purposes of a specific limerick. Otherwise no limerick would ever be approved there, because editors would not be able to agree on what was a perfect rhyme. As it is, it takes them awhile anyway!

Wordmatic.
 
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wordmatic...
all those words are perfect rhymes for me too!
 
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Well, first of all, let me be very clear on something...I'm not criticizing the rhyming of "poor" and "door;" if that's how a lot of you say them, so be it. I am just surprised because, to my knowledge, I have never heard anyone say "poor" to rhyme with "door" before. That's all. Total shock. It would be similar to my saying that "bat" and "head" rhymed. Wouldn't that surprise you? I surely respect that those 2 words rhyme for all of you. Those of you who have experienced my workshopping on OEDILF know that I am very flexible about those sorts of things.
quote:
Even there it is the minority of self-appointed "rhyme mavens" that argue that pronunciation is fixed and inflexible and that only their own pronunciation can be correct. Similarly it is the minority of "stress-mavens" who claim that the stress and inflection on any word is as indicated in the granite-carved lexicography of their preferred dictionary.
But you see, Richard, everyone has his or her pet peeve on OEDILF or anywhere. There are also grammar mavens and definition mavens. People just have different ways of making their mark, and I think that is good. It provides for the diversity in workshopping that we see.

As for David Schildkret (and boy do I miss him!), I am not sure I completely agree with him, if indeed he said that. What happens when you just plain aren't pronouncing a word correctly? For example, I have trouble with the word "tour;" it comes out "ter," which isn't quite right. While I agree that different pronunciations should be (and are) accepted there, I don't think that anything should go.
 
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It would be similar to my saying that "bat" and "head" rhymed.


I agree that "bat" can't rhyme with "head"
No more could, say, "cat" rhyme with "dead".
But "poor" rhymes with "door"
In the UK for sure.
And that's all I actually said. Smile


Richard English
 
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Any speech therapists on board? This must be a dicey area for them.. Where do you draw the line between making sure someone speaks well enough to communicate.. [i.e. speech defect] and trying to help them fit in socially or something [i.e. ter] instead of tour; nucular instead of nuclear? A generation or more ago, this was a straightforward proposition; you & I had friends who needed help with a stutter, or perhaps with an uncoordinated tongue as happens in Downs syndrome. However, mykids all went to Mr.Speech Therapist in kindergarten until they could say "thumb" (not fumb)-- an articulation which would have happened on its own 6 mos. later!

I don't mean to suggest "ter"-pronouncers are being sent to specialists... YET! But, as a for lang teacher for the very young, I've observed that children pronounce exactly what they hear. Their ears/neural systems are far sharper than ours, and this is the age at which their future pattern is set. It intrigues me to think that the speech pathology field might expand soon enough to include, say, sounds which are unpleasant to the upper-middle class American ear!! (shades of Eliza Doolittle)
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard English:
quote:
It would be similar to my saying that "bat" and "head" rhymed.


I agree that "bat" can't rhyme with "head"
No more could, say, "cat" rhyme with "dead".
But "poor" rhymes with "door"
In the UK for sure.
And that's all I actually said. Smile


So Richard says "poor" rhymes with "door".
Well I disagree! What is more,
I have never heard
It rhymed with that word.
He surely can't claim "poor" is "pour".
 
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I know of no standard UK accent in which "poor" and "pour" are homophones.
 
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I know of no standard UK accent in which "poor" and "pour" are homophones.

Not exact, I agree. But pretty close in the south - especially in Cockney and south London accents.


Richard English
 
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Just catching up with the poor-pour-tour-ter discussion. Kalleh, David Schildkret weighed in during a workshop on my "Breeziness" lim, in an early version of which I had rhymed "Jerry," "airy" and "scary." They all rhymed for me, but certainly not for several others. Someone suggested "Mary," and that didn't rhyme for some of the group either. I was totally surprised. David weighed in to the effect that Jerry and airy rhyme for half of all U.S. residents and that we tend to accommodate such regional differences at OEDILF. In the end, I switched the name to "Blair" and made it rhyme with "air," and no one seemed to have a problem with it!

As for a question you raised elsewhere, that you rhyme "poor" with "doer" and "door" with "more." You asked whether I would rhyme "more" with "doer," and I would not. I would also rhyme "more" with "door." I rhyme "doer" with "sewer," and I suppose the only m-word I'd rhyme with "doer" and "sewer" is a cow, as in "moo-er!"

WM
 
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I've observed that children pronounce exactly what they hear.

Well, Bethree, I might disagree with that statement, at least to a point. While I agree that children learn to pronounce based on what they hear, what explains differences within families then? Our first 2 kids (especially the oldest) were quite accurate with their pronunciations. Our youngest, though, mispronounced words all the time, and for a long time. I don't know how old she was when she was still saying, "renember?" One of our favorites was "Housen Play" for "license plate." Perhaps it's the leniency that comes with the third child, but it surely didn't seem to me that we spoke to any of our kids differently.

Wordmatic, I do renember (Big Grin) the Mary/marry/merry discussion on OEDILF. If I recall, that was close to the time that David left the project. I do agree that we have to give in to dialects, regional pronunciations, etc., there. I am just saying that there is a point where we can't accept just anything. It's hard, though, I know.

There is a bit of a difference between "doer" and "poor" to me, too. I elongate the "er," which doesn't happen with "poor." The same happens with "sewer," which rhymes with "doer" for me. You know the beer Coors? Well, that rhymes with "poor" with me, if you delete the "s." There aren't many perfect rhymes for me. I checked rhymezone.com, and none of theirs works perfectly for me, though "moor" is best. Others they cite are: cure, lure, pure, sure, tour (that might, if I said it right!), your, your're.

By the way, Mary/marry/merry all rhyme to me. So do Jerry/airy/scary.
 
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Well, Kalleh, you bring up an interesting point! I had a brother (not the youngest sib) who seemed to have his very own lingo as he learned to talk; I still remember "dibb-ih-days" was "slippers" ?! He did turn out to be dyslexic, but then the other dyslexic sib did no such thing so there you go. And of course I have teeny French students who do a sort of "jibbertejabber" approximation of phrases they're asked to repeat. But they do get the vowel and consonant sounds and intonation exactly right-- the 'accent', in other words.
 
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You know the beer Coors? Well, that rhymes with "poor" with me,

How very appropriate.

It also is a near-rhyme for "curse" (which is what you'll do the next morning if you're unwise enough to drink the stuff).


Richard English
 
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Well I know you are joking (I don't want you to think I don't understand that British humor Wink), Richard, but "curse," without the "s," and "poor" don't rhyme for me. The sound is "er" with "curse" and "oor" with "poor," for me.
 
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"Curse" and "Coors" are not rhymes. But they are near rhymes - which is what I said they were.


Richard English
 
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They are quite different to me. On OEDILF they have a poll about the soft and hard "s." I don't know which is which, but that's part of the difference for me, I think. The other part is the "er" sound versus the "oo" sound.

Unfortunately, this birthday thread has become a pronunciation thread. However, it seems the right place to post a comment from QT from the Chicago Sun Times today; he says, "Tour" rhymes with "dour." That's not the case with me, but then I've never been able to pronounce "tour," as I said above. Do those words rhyme for you?

We really should move this this conversation to another area!
 
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"Tour" rhymes with "dour." That's not the case with me, but then I've never been able to pronounce "tour," as I said above. Do those words rhyme for you?

No. They are close but wouldn't pass muster in one of my limericks.


Richard English
 
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"Dour" rhymes with "sour" to me, which is nothing like "tour" or "your" in my vocabulary.
 
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I've heard others pronounce dour to rhyme with tour, but I also pronounce dour to rhyme with sour and tower and glower and hour!

Now back to Birthdays:

It's June, and we have two on the list, just as a reminder for those inspired to write deep thoughts and gentle poesy (so's you can work ahead on your masterpieces): Jerry Thomas on the 8th and Blues on the 20th!

Wordmatic
 
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Happy Birthday to Our Friend JT:
A stalwart of Word Games is he!
As a luau-fly, he's cute
In a grass skirt, to boot;
Look out, Pele: his leis are not free!

Happy Birthday, one day late--but maybe JIT (just in time) because of the time difference? --to Jerry, our Hawiaan transplant and beacon of good retirement living!

Wordmatic,
Birthday Archive Librarian
 
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Another day, another missed birthday! I am sorry, Jerry! I hope it was a good one. Big Grin

Our Jerry's been here since forever;
His posts are so funny and clever.
So how could I miss
His birthday...Oh hiss!
Don't hate me, dear Jerry...no never!

Happy Birthday, Jer! So sorry to be late.
 
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Happy belated birthday, jerry! Apologies for for missing the actual day!
Smile Big Grin Cool


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
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[Excerpt from O. E. Holmes's poem The Deacon's Masterpiece -- the One-Hoss Shay] :

quote:
Little of all we value here
Wakes on the morn of its hundredth year
Without both feeling and looking queer.


It's really only my 77th, but as the 100th draws near, that feeling of queerness grows more severe.

Friends came from near and far for the party, which lasted three days. Some came from as far away as China.

Everybody knows that in my role of Expert-Amateur Pastry Chef I habitually provide decorated cakes for the neighbors' birthdays (whether they want them or not) so at the appropriate moment I announced: "At age 77 I have a right to do as I please, so today when the time came to make a birthday cake, I took a nap instead. Therefore I am happy to tell you all that you are free to use your imagination and pretend you have just been served a slice of the most beautiful and delicious birthday cake imaginable."

Several guests lit lighters for me to blow out. The guitarist grabbed his guitar and all sang "Happy Birthday" to me.

I sincerely appreciate the Birthday Greetings from my fellow WordCrafters.


~~~~~~~ jerry
 
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~~~~~jerry,

I'm sorry to be late... but I'm so glad you had a happy 77th! That is divisible by 11, my favorite number. Wish we could have a convention in Hawaii, in the summer, so I could attend, and we could bake cakes for you!

You are a dearest friend.... stay with us here; we need your humor.

Love,
KHC
 
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The 2008 venue is still wide open. I'd be happy with Hawaii or Georgia.

But we need a "host" to coordinate and oversee the ground arrangements


Richard English
 
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Today is the birthday of Blues, daughter of our late co-founder, Morgan, and mother of two daughters, one born just last December.

Happy Birthday, Blues! Hope you and your family are enjoying a special day!

Wordmatic
[WBL*]

Happy Birthday to youse, our friend Blues!
Are you kin to the guy with the Clues?
Hope your day's quite the bash
And you get lots of cash
Or nice presents, whichever you choose!



* Wordcraft Birthday Librarian
 
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Happy Birthday, Blues - and many happy returns of the day!


*******
"Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions.
~Dalai Lama
 
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The people are standing in queues
To congratulate our friend Miss Blues
Today's 20 June
And it's late afternoon.
Could we walk a mile in her shoes?
 
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Happy birthday, Blues, I hope you and your family enjoy it!


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
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And a happy birthday from me, too. I hope to meet you at the next Wordcraft gathering.


Richard English
 
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Now all the "Blues" rhymes are taken! Mad I should have written this earlier.

Happy Birthday, Blues! And I hope your wedding will be fantastic! Blues is planning to be married on 07/07/07. Cool. Cool

Higgledy Piggledy
Wordcrafter's Erin N.,
Soon to be married on
Seven, July.

Sorry I'm late in my
Birthday's good wishes; I
Enthusiastically
Hope you weren't shy!

Happy Birthday! Please stay in touch and let us know about your wedding day.
 
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I know that I'm a day early
But I didn't risk missing it, surely
You know Sunflower's day
I just one night away,
Have a very nice birthday, Girlie!

(ok - the poem sorta sucks, but it's something . . . and for once we're a day ahead instead of a few days late)


*******
"Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions.
~Dalai Lama
 
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I see it's a big week around here;
With Sunflower on Monday, then dear
Cat next on Wednesday
And Kalleh on Thursday--
Three years gained by Friday, I fear!

Happy Birthdays all round, and I'll attempt to weave a lame lim for each of you, as your friendly Wordcraft Birthday Librarian (WBL, pronounced "wobble.") (The real librarian beat me to it!)

Wordmatic
 
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Happy Birthday, Sunflower!



Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
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Razz Cool Wink Big Grin Eek

SUNFLOWER PLEASE CLICK HERE

(( This really is a Private Message to Sunflower, but it's posted here for the convenience of Sunflower's nosey friends and neighbors ))
 
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Well CW and Sunflower, I am in good company!

I will have to wish you both Happy Birthday today because guess where I'll be on my birthday? Vienna! Big Grin

CW's really a pleaser;
I'll try very hard not to tease 'er.
Happy birthday to you!
And toast a great brew.
[I promise I'll not call you "Geezer!"]

Now Sue's celebrating one, too!
And Asa, we know, won't eschew
Her wonderful day,
Instead he will say,
"There's plenty of gifts...and a screw!"
 
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Happy birthdays, ladies.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
 
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Ooh - happy wishes out to Kalleh, too!

Kalleh this toast is to you
As a friend we all know you're true blue!
your kindness is known
and our friendship has grown
Happy Birthday, best wishes to you!


*******
"Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions.
~Dalai Lama
 
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Happy Birthday Kalleh.
 
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Thanks, guys. It was a good one. Shu was especially good to me!
 
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Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile
While the Birthday Chorus rehearses
To formally sing you these verses
Let us wish you a wealth
Of good fortune and health
For Kalleh, you're the best of the nurses.
Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile
 
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Happy birthday, Kalleh!

Big Grin


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
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Yesterday I so guiltily thought:
Omigosh, now, just who've I forgought?
August's one-third away
And I've missed someone's day--
So whose birthday have we? Diddly-squaught!

Happy unbirthday to everybody on the entire board for the entire month of August--unless, of course, you are being coy about your birthday and just don't want a fuss, in which case, I most sincerely wish you, whoever you are, a delightfully enjoyable, happy, and above all, secret, birthday!

Wordmatic,
WBL
 
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Thank you, Jerry and Wordmatic. As Jerry says, if some of you newbies (and oldies as well!) would please send Jerry your birth dates, we'll properly congratulate you when your day comes. Thanks so much!
 
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Even though she doesn't post here, I'd like to wish my darling daughter, Catherine, a happy birthday today!
 
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Oh dear, we missed Bethree! Happy belated birthday, Bethree!


*******
"Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions.
~Dalai Lama
 
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Sorry, Bethree--I've been going by the list at the top of the thread and didn't realize there was this new one at the bottom!

Happy birthday, nearly a month late!

WM
 
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And now, official WBL wishes on behalf of the entire Wordcraft Virtual Presence to Today's Birthday Girl:

Happy Birthday, Dianthus-the-singer--
We hope your day was a humdinger!
With sipping of wine,
The some gifts rare and fine--
And a day off from whatever stings yer!


Wordmatic-
WBL (Wordcraft Birthday Librarian)
 
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