Earthly language serves two contradictory purposes: to facilitate thought and to prevent it.

Garrett Hardin

I'd say that't not so. I think language facilitates thought, but how does it prevent thought?

Excuse us. We're begging your pardon.
We found in the great Google Garden
A famous ecologist,
Microbiologist,
And writer of wit, Garrett Hardin

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
I'd say that't not so. I think language facilitates thought, but how does it prevent thought?

think of all the rhetoric out there that's just so much noise, which interferes with rational thought.

quote:

think of all the rhetoric out there that's just so much noise, which interferes with rational thought.

It's more than just noise. Rhetoric is a formidable devise to persuade people to take a course of action. That it works by convincing the heart rather than the head is undeniable - but sometimes it's the only way to get action.

Just listen to some of the great orators and see how they have succeeded in convincing millions just through the power of their words.

quote:

Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy: Is it so?:
Earthly language serves two contradictory purposes: to facilitate thought and to prevent it. Garrett Hardin

I think the statement is one of these: tau·tol·o·gy (Amer Herit Dic'y)...
Logic An empty or vacuous statement composed of simpler statements in a fashion that makes it logically true whether the simpler statements are factually true or false...

How does being tautological alter its implications?

quote:

Logic An empty or vacuous statement composed of simpler statements in a fashion that makes it logically true whether the simpler statements are factually true or false...

That sounds more like Ambrose Bierce than anything else!

quote:

Originally posted by Richard English:
It's more than just noise. Rhetoric is a formidable devise to persuade people to take a course of action. That it works by convincing the heart rather than the head is undeniable - but sometimes it's the only way to get action.

Just listen to some of the great orators and see how they have succeeded in convincing millions just through the power of their words.

I'm afraid I used 'rhetoric' in an ironic sense. "He acquired a boundless command of the rhetoric in which the vulgar express hatred and contempt." (Macaulay)

I can think of plenty of cases where language is used to prevent thought. In fact Richard you named one yourself - the great orators who use language to convince people through the power of their words. The trick is just that - to convince people with words by persuading them that you are right and hence they don't need to think about the issues.

Most advertising does this - especially advertising where "scientific" claims are being made for pseudo-medical products such as slimming products and anti-aging creams.

Most politicians do it - talking a lot so that they prevent people forming a rational critical judgement.

Estate agents live by preventing accurate communication.

Certain newspapers promote their agendas by ignoring the facts and appealing directly to the visceral emotions of the general public.

There are endless examples of the use of language to prevent thought.

My issue was with the statement that most rhetoric was "just noise". I agree about the possible "suspension of thought" factor. Indeed, as I said "...That it works by convincing the heart rather than the head is undeniable..."

Whether or not the power of rhetoric is always used for good is another factor entirely.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard English:
My issue was with the statement that most rhetoric was "just noise".

my statement was: think of all the rhetoric out there that's just so much noise...

nice twist, Richard.

An essential element of professional salesmen is their unshakeable conviction that their products or services will be beneficial to those who purchase them.

Nothing happens until somebody sells something.

One good working definition of rhetoric is: "The effective use of all the available means of persuasion."

quote:

Originally posted by jerry thomas:
The effective use of all the available means of persuasion.[/b]"

Sounds like Teddy Roosevelt's famous statement, "Speak softly and carry a big stick!" So we got us some rhetorical statements shooting from cannon muzzles?

quote:

Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy:
How does being tautological alter its implications?

I think being tautological makes it difficult to tease out any implications. In other words, earthly language serves countless masters with infinite purposes. Why has the author selected these two? Maybe with more context I could figure out what he's getting at.

quote:

I can think of plenty of cases where language is used to prevent thought.

Yes, Bob, and others. I see your point.

However, the statement talks about language having 2 contradictory purposes...to facilitate thought and to prevent it. To me that equates the importance of the two purposes, and I don't agree with that. Much more often the purpose is to facilitate thought, in my opinion, and so much more so that the purposes can't be "contradictory."

Perhaps I am too optimistic about communication, though.

I don't think it's a tautology, because either statement could be false. That is, it might be that language only facilitates thought and never prevents it, in which case the statement would be false.

An example of a tautology is "X or not X", where X is an expression that can be true or false, like "Ireland is a British island" or "Thomas Edison invented the light bulb". The whole statement "X or not X" is true, independent of Ireland or Edison. Hence, as Bethree5 implied, it ends up telling you nothing about Ireland or Edison.
I think Hardin's quote was just a quip to get people thinking about language, and it was successful.

I understood that this first meaning of tautology was of a statement that MUST be true. For example, "Either Edison invented the light bulb or someone else did" Or, "Ireland is either a British island or it's not".

In case case of language the tautological statement would be that language either facilitates thought or prevents thought. One or other is probably true (although it could be held that both, or neither, is true).

tautology

There are differences between rhetorical tautology and logical tautology.

quote:

Originally posted by neveu:
Edison.
I think Hardin's quote was just a quip to get people thinking about language, and it was successful.

I must agree, Neveu. Reading his various works, one finds an impish wit at work.

quote:

There are differences between rhetorical tautology and logical tautology.

I was aware of that. In my dictionary the first definition is of logical tautology, which is why I made that reference to the "first meaning".

quote:

Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy:

quote:

Originally posted by neveu:
..I think Hardin's quote was just a quip to get people thinking about language, and it was successful.

I must agree, Neveu...

I'd have to go along with this; I enjoyed the discussion.