Wordcraft Home Page    Wordcraft Community Home Page    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  The Written Word    Overnegation: don't fail to miss it!
Page 1 2 3 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Overnegation: don't fail to miss it! Login/Join
 
Member
Picture of bethree5
posted
I thought it might be fun to have a place to collect flagrant overnegations seen or imagined, now that we have goofy's clearcut & quotable clarification of double negatives, to wit:

quote:
There are at least 3 kinds of things that are called "double negatives".

1) the standard English use of two negatives to make a positive, as in "not unlikely" or "I don't believe that X didn't happen" - which means "I believe that X happened."

2) Negative concord, where two negatives reinforce each other as in "I can't get no satisfaction". This is nonstandard, but I don't see how it is unclear.

3) overnegation, like "Don't fail to miss it", where there is one negative too many. Here, "fail to miss" means "miss". Language Log has a lot to say about overnegation.


Here's one I spotted this morning in a report on a recent Scott Walker interview:

Romney recently confirmed he would not enact a ban on insurance discrimination against people with pre-existing conditions if elected president.
 
Posts: 2605 | Location: As they say at 101.5FM: Not New York... Not Philadelphia... PROUD TO BE NEW JERSEY!Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of arnie
posted Hide Post
quote:
Romney recently confirmed he would not enact a ban on insurance discrimination against people with pre-existing conditions if elected president.

I don't see that that is overnegation. It requires careful reading, but the meaning is clear. It could possibly have been phrased more simply, though. For instance, the writer could have said, Romney recently denied he would enact a ban ...


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
Posts: 10940 | Location: LondonReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of arnie
posted Hide Post
Here's one from a station ID slogan by Dave, a cable and satellite channel here.
quote:
DAVE Do you not like it.

An announcer speaks the words with an upward inflection at the end, which makes it sound interrogative, but the sentence on screen has no question mark, just a stop at the end.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
Posts: 10940 | Location: LondonReply With QuoteReport This Post
<Proofreader>
posted
quote:
Here, "fail to miss" means "miss". Language Log has a lot to say about overnegation.

Doesn't it mean "hit"?

How about "Romeny says he won't ban..."?
 
Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Proofreader:

Doesn't it mean "hit"?



There are many examples where is clearly supposed to mean "miss", For instance:

quote:

Miss Goodhandy doesn't fail to miss an opportunity to humiliate Steve, and gives him a few good swats with the jockstrap's thick elastic waistband.

Although his attendance at school was still very poor, Stanley never failed to miss a movie at the local theaters.

Canceling a few flights here and there seems like a good trade-off because the results of failing to miss a real threat are so severe.

This is sure to be a killer tournament, don't fail to miss it!
 
Posts: 2428Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<Proofreader>
posted
Obviously illogical, said Mr. Spock.
 
Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Proofreader:
Obviously illogical, said Mr. Spock.


There's no reason to expect language to be logical. Having said that, in standard English two negatives multiply into a positive, which is why overnegation is a mistake. But I think it's interesting that I often don't notice overnegations at first. As Mark Liberman says, why are negations so easy to fail to miss?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: goofy,
 
Posts: 2428Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Kalleh
posted Hide Post
quote:
I don't see that that is overnegation. It requires careful reading, but the meaning is clear.
Ah, arnie. You just have to know Scott Walker to know that it's completely illogical. Wink
 
Posts: 24735 | Location: Chicago, USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of bethree5
posted Hide Post
Yes I see that my 'Romney recently confirmed..' quote is not 'overnegation', because the pluses & minuses add up correctly to express the intended meaning. It's the 'careful reading' I don't like, feels like I'm doing a math problem instead of reading. Perhaps it quaifies as 'too dang much negation.'

Here's my re-write: Romney recently confirmed he's fine with denying insurance to those with pre-existing conditions. Wink
 
Posts: 2605 | Location: As they say at 101.5FM: Not New York... Not Philadelphia... PROUD TO BE NEW JERSEY!Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Richard English
posted Hide Post
Of course, apart from its overnegation, the Romney quote is a typical example of politician-speak - designed to confuse rather than clarify.

And I wonder how he would feel if it were him or one of his loved ones who was unable to get insurance because of some pre-exixting condition?

Thank goodness I live in England, where the NHS will treat me, without charge, for as long as I live, regardless of any physical conditions I might have, pre-existing or acquired


Richard English
 
Posts: 8038 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UKReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of BobHale
posted Hide Post
quote:
Romney recently confirmed he would not enact a ban on insurance discrimination against people with pre-existing conditions if elected president.


is certainly an example of confusing negation because without knowing anything about Romney it's impossible to know if he means what he says or has made an error.

Being able to decide if he is for or against insurance discrimination relies on actually already knowing the answer.


"No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money." Samuel Johnson.
 
Posts: 9421 | Location: EnglandReply With QuoteReport This Post
<Proofreader>
posted
It's classic case of a politician making a statement that causes the listener to mistakenly think he's on their side.
 
Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Oh, this political double-speak is really very simple! It was described by a German, Max Weber, who called it the protestant work ethic,invented by a French religious zealot, Jean Cauvin, went to England where they started calling him John Calvin, ended up in both England and Scotland, then the whole lot of them got deported to the American colonies, where they started "speaking in tongues in church, then talking that same gibberish in public. There, very simple! So, y'see, it's all the fault of the English! If you'd shot the lot of them instead of deporting them, we'd have much less to complain about. Big Grin


It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. -J. Krishnamurti
 
Posts: 6168 | Location: Muncie, IndianaReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bethree5:

Romney recently confirmed he would not enact a ban on insurance discrimination against people with pre-existing conditions if elected president.


Hold on... in what way is this sentence an example of a politician trying to confuse us with double-speak? This sentence was written by a journalist! We don't know what the politician's actual words were!
 
Posts: 2428Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<Proofreader>
posted
Basicaslly, that's what he said. The journalist appears to have merely omitted the quotes since part is a paraphrase..
 
Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
How do you know?
 
Posts: 2428Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of arnie
posted Hide Post
quote:
Basicaslly, that's what he said. The journalist appears to have merely omitted the quotes since part is a paraphrase..

But why is that journalist paraphrasing something that he said at another time?

There's also not any indication of the question he was asked (if there was one). He might have been asked something like "Can you confirm you would not enact a ban on insurance discrimination against people with pre-existing conditions if elected president?" If he answered "Yes" it would have been a journalist who produced the convoluted sentence.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
Posts: 10940 | Location: LondonReply With QuoteReport This Post
<Proofreader>
posted
quote:
If he answered "Yes" it would have been a journalist who produced the convoluted sentence.

Mit Romney never gives a "Yes" or "No" answer to any question, no matter how simple.
 
Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Bain Capitol? The French word for "bath" is bain. Invest with Mitt and end up under water. Big Grin


It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. -J. Krishnamurti
 
Posts: 6168 | Location: Muncie, IndianaReply With QuoteReport This Post
<Proofreader>
posted
Romney would like to have a Bain Capitol to work in but he worked for Bain Capital.
 
Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Kalleh
posted Hide Post
quote:
It's the 'careful reading' I don't like, feels like I'm doing a math problem instead of reading. Perhaps it quaifies as 'too dang much negation.'
Bethree, you have said it perfectly. That is exactly why I don't like complicated double negatives. Interestingly, though, just the other day I used an uncomplicated one (I don't recall exactly what it was) for emphasis so sometimes I think double negatives can be helpful.
 
Posts: 24735 | Location: Chicago, USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Kalleh:Bethree, you have said it perfectly. That is exactly why I don't like complicated double negatives. Interestingly, though, just the other day I used an uncomplicated one (I don't recall exactly what it was) for emphasis so sometimes I think double negatives can be helpful.


But which kind of double negative? If we're going to talk about this, why not be specific?
 
Posts: 2428Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Kalleh
posted Hide Post
I'll be honest, I don't find those categories helpful so I haven't focused on them. I think about double negatives as complicated (such as the above one with several negatives) or more simple. The latter ones I find can add emphasis, such as: "That is not an uncommon nursing major." That is somewhat different from: "That is a common nursing major."

However, since you asked about the categories, here are my thoughts. I didn't remember specifically what I said (above post), but it likely was from your first category. The second category I never use and don't see used much. The third category is probably the one that I not uncommonly (ha!) find complex and therefore hard to figure out.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,
 
Posts: 24735 | Location: Chicago, USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I don't find it helpful to lump all double negatives together when there are at least three different kinds, each with a distinct meaning and usage.

Anyway, here's another overnegation, from Hemingway's A Moveable Feast:

quote:
Scott was lying with with his eyes closed, breathing slowly and carefully and, with his waxy color and his perfect features, he looked like a little dead crusader. I was getting tired of the literary life, if this was the literary life that I was leading, and already I missed not working and I felt the death loneliness that comes at the end of every day that is wasted in your life. I was very tired of Scott and of this silly comedy, but I found the waiter and gave him the money to buy a thermometer and a tube of aspirin and ordered two citron pressés and two double whiskies.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: goofy,
 
Posts: 2428Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Richard English
posted Hide Post
I don't find this writing all the easy to read - but I only saw one double negative - which didn't seem excessive to me.


Richard English
 
Posts: 8038 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UKReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Kalleh
posted Hide Post
quote:
I don't find this writing all the easy to read
It's hard to tell with just this much text.

However, I can't even find one double negative. What am I missing?
 
Posts: 24735 | Location: Chicago, USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Richard English:
I don't find this writing all the easy to read - but I only saw one double negative - which didn't seem excessive to me.


I have bolded the bit in question.

It's overnegation - "not working" should be "working". I don't know about excessive, but it is a mistake. And isn't it interesting that it doesn't seem wrong on first reading?
 
Posts: 2428Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of arnie
posted Hide Post
That does depend on context again. Maybe the narrator was lazy and preferred doing nothing to working? He might have felt that being a wage slave was wasting his life...


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
Posts: 10940 | Location: LondonReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Hemingway is fed up with having to babysit Scott Fitzgerald. He feels like he is wasting his life. He misses working.

But if that passage doesn't give you enough context, read the Language Log post I linked to which provides more context.
 
Posts: 2428Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Richard English
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by goofy:
quote:
Originally posted by Richard English:
I don't find this writing all the easy to read - but I only saw one double negative - which didn't seem excessive to me.


I have bolded the bit in question.

It's overnegation - "not working" should be "working". I don't know about excessive, but it is a mistake. And isn't it interesting that it doesn't seem wrong on first reading?

This is the double negative I spotted and it seems fine to me.

Hemingway is saying that he is missing the leisure he had previously had when he wasn't working; it seems a perfectly reasonable way of phrasing this concept. He could have been missing working, whilst he was retired; here he is missing not working because he is presumably no longer retired. I don't believe he was missing working - although without reading the full passage I can't say whether the double negative was intended or simply a mistake.

As I wrote earlier, these kinds of double negatives are common enough in UK English.


Richard English
 
Posts: 8038 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UKReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
He's not working. He's traveling with Fitzgerald from Paris to Lyon and back.

If I felt the death loneliness that comes at the end of every day that is wasted, I would miss working. But I guess that's just me.

Even more context: read the whole chapter.
 
Posts: 2428Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of arnie
posted Hide Post
Yes, I agree, goofy. That is overnegation. As you say, it doesn't seem wrong on first reading.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
Posts: 10940 | Location: LondonReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Richard English
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by goofy:
He's not working. He's traveling with Fitzgerald from Paris to Lyon and back.

If I felt the death loneliness that comes at the end of every day that is wasted, I would miss working. But I guess that's just me.

Even more context: read the whole chapter.


If he is working, then the sense of the sentence is wrong and the word "not" is incorrect. Having said which, although the sentence does not say what he meant it to say, and in that sense there is a mistake, grammatically it is fine.


Richard English
 
Posts: 8038 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UKReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of BobHale
posted Hide Post
That's the whole point. Over-negation is rarely grammatically wrong in the sense that it leads to a sentence outside the normal grammatical rules of English. The problem with it can be that without knowing what the author intended to mean it can be impossible to work out if the sentence says what was intended or, as is the case here, the opposite of what was intended.


"No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money." Samuel Johnson.
 
Posts: 9421 | Location: EnglandReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of arnie
posted Hide Post
How about this one? Bob should recognise it:
quote:
"Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
Posts: 10940 | Location: LondonReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of BobHale
posted Hide Post
Big Grin


"No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money." Samuel Johnson.
 
Posts: 9421 | Location: EnglandReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Kalleh
posted Hide Post
quote:
Hemingway is saying that he is missing the leisure he had previously had when he wasn't working; it seems a perfectly reasonable way of phrasing this concept.
If that's what wss meant, Richard is right that it was understandable, though I don't see any double negative at all in that case. If goofy is right, there clearly is overnegation. I will have to read the chapter.

Arnie, yours is impossible...and I know what it's from too! Wink
 
Posts: 24735 | Location: Chicago, USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Richard English
posted Hide Post
quote:
I missed not working

This is the double negative - although it's not all that blatant. "Missed" is a negative word in that it expresses a negative concept - a failure to hit, say. "Not" is also a negative word and thus the two words together are a double negative - which way or may not be correct, depending on the concept being expressed.

"I enjoyed not working" is a single negative; "I didn't enjoy not working is a double negative.


Richard English
 
Posts: 8038 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UKReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of arnie
posted Hide Post
So, following your logic, Richard, what would "I didn't miss not working" be? Is it a triple negative?


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
Posts: 10940 | Location: LondonReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Richard English
posted Hide Post
I would think it's a triple negative, yes. It means that the writer is glad to be working again after a period of not working.

Of course, every time you add a negative the sentence gets harder to follow.


Richard English
 
Posts: 8038 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UKReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Kalleh
posted Hide Post
I wouldn't consider "miss" to be included in a "double negative" connotation, thus the misunderstanding.
 
Posts: 24735 | Location: Chicago, USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Richard English
posted Hide Post
In Jennifer Stewart's newsletter today - http://www.write101.com the following phrase appears: "...the US government declaration offers no conclusive proof to deny the existence of mermaids either...".

Would not the sentence, " "We can't be sure whether or not mermaids exist" have been both more elegant and more readily understandable?


Richard English
 
Posts: 8038 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UKReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Kalleh
posted Hide Post
Hmm, usually I agree with double negatives making things more cloudy, but I kinda like it in this instance.
 
Posts: 24735 | Location: Chicago, USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Language Log:

quote:
Stephen Lord, who is the GAO's director of Homeland Security and Justice Issues, testified about the matter Wednesday in Rogers' subcommittee. Rogers asked him: "Isn't it true that, based on your report, the Transportation Security Administration cannot assure the American people that foreign terrorists are not in this country learning how to fly airplanes, yes or no?"

Mr Lord responded: "At this time, no."
 
Posts: 2428Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of arnie
posted Hide Post
Good grief. As Geoff Pullum puts it,
quote:
Ye gods, that sort of crazy multiple negation makes me afraid, very afraid, of having to take the witness stand.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
Posts: 10940 | Location: LondonReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of bethree5
posted Hide Post
objection, your honor, on the grounds of incomprehensibilty!
 
Posts: 2605 | Location: As they say at 101.5FM: Not New York... Not Philadelphia... PROUD TO BE NEW JERSEY!Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Kalleh
posted Hide Post
Goofy, that's just what I mean about the confusion. In that instance, I would have likely been held in contempt of court for refusing to answer that "yes" or "no" question. Wink

I did love Pullum's explanation, though. That Stephen Lord is one smart man to answer the question so quickly. I would have had to have gone through Pullum's explanation in my mind.
 
Posts: 24735 | Location: Chicago, USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Kalleh:
Goofy, that's just what I mean about the confusion.


Yeah, I know, it is confusing. It's too many negatives for our brains to handle. But surely you can see that it is something completely different from, say "I didn't see nothing."
 
Posts: 2428Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 2428Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Kalleh
posted Hide Post
quote:
The 'cannot' = 'must not' interpretation ('Don't underestimate the implications of the Famine') certainly doesn't work in this context. It would be strangely defensive to introduce a landmark work of scholarship by mentioning doubts about its significance, even if only in dismissing them.
Why doesn't it work?
 
Posts: 24735 | Location: Chicago, USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3  
 

Wordcraft Home Page    Wordcraft Community Home Page    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  The Written Word    Overnegation: don't fail to miss it!

Copyright © 2002-12