Please PM your masterpieces to me. Obvioualy it will be for the readers to decide, but, if the deciding vote comes to me, let me say that I value scansion highly and, if a limerick is appropriate to its topic, then that counts well with me also.

Pronunciation? I'll get one to you.

The problem, of course, with scansion (or rhyming for that matter) can be the different accents/dialects. But, as I must remind myself since I am competitive by nature, the winner doesn't receive the Pulitzer Prize.

The proununciation should be simple enough even for US English speakers.

Keynes is the stressed part of the word and rhymes with "scenes". Horsted is pronounced "Hawsted" (in other words, the "r" is not sounded". There aren't to many words that rhyme with Horsted but word combinations such as "sauce Ted" work perfectly.

So are you saying that this (but with an h, not an s)

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:en-us-sauce.ogg

is preferable to this?

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:en-us-source.ogg

Because I'd have supposed that the 'Hors' in Horsted was pronounced the same as the 'horse' in horse.


EDIT In fact, my submission is based is based on that supposition.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alphabet Soup,

Ack! Controversy!

From the Horsted Keynes website:

quote:

Welcome to our village. First you'll want to learn to pronounce Horsted Keynes properly so that the locals don't give you a funny look (or shoot you ;-) when you say Horsted Keenes! The correct way to say Horsted Kaynes is with an a as in say. The reason for this is because the village is named after a Frenchman who was given the land after that unpleasantness at Hastings in 1066.

http://www.horstedkeynes.com/mainindex.html

And South Today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...VbH4&feature=related

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alphabet Soup,

Controversy indeed - may have to rework the one I just sent Richard, where I have taken him at his word with the pronunciation.

I've not sent one, but what I have is now worthless, at least by Richard's standards.

We can hardly be blamed from rhyming it the way Richard told us to - I think he and the rest of us voters, because Richard has only one vote, are going to have to agree to accept both pronunciations. As I mentioned recently the Tunisia game had about 3 or 4 different pronunciations of the place name.

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff:
I've not sent one, but what I have is now worthless, at least by Richard's standards.

Perhaps you could exchange the problematic word for the word "haw".

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alphabet Soup,

quote:

Originally posted by Alphabet Soup:

Perhaps you could exchange the problematic word for the word "haw".

Perhaps, if I added "hee" as a prefix, and wrote about barnyards...

quote:

Originally posted by Alphabet Soup:
So are you saying that this (but with an h, not an s)

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:en-us-sauce.ogg

is preferable to this?

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:en-us-source.ogg

Because I'd have supposed that the 'Hors' in Horsted was pronounced the same as the 'horse' in horse.


EDIT In fact, my submission is based is based on that supposition.

In my UK English "horse" and "sauce" have the same vowel sound. I realise that this is not the case in US English where the "r" in horse is sounded.

quote:

Originally posted by Alphabet Soup:
Ack! Controversy!

From the Horsted Keynes website:

quote:

Welcome to our village. First you'll want to learn to pronounce Horsted Keynes properly so that the locals don't give you a funny look (or shoot you ;-) when you say Horsted Keenes! The correct way to say Horsted Kaynes is with an a as in say. The reason for this is because the village is named after a Frenchman who was given the land after that unpleasantness at Hastings in 1066.

http://www.horstedkeynes.com/mainindex.html

And South Today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...VbH4&feature=related

I confess I have never heard the name of the villages pronounced to rhyme with "manes". Certainly the announcers on the Bluebell Line all pronounce it to rhyme with "beans".

But I suggest that we accept either.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard English:

quote:

Originally posted by Alphabet Soup:
So are you saying that this (but with an h, not an s)

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:en-us-sauce.ogg

is preferable to this?

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:en-us-source.ogg

Because I'd have supposed that the 'Hors' in Horsted was pronounced the same as the 'horse' in horse.


EDIT In fact, my submission is based is based on that supposition.

In my UK English "horse" and "sauce" have the same vowel sound. I realise that this is not the case in US English where the "r" in horse is sounded.

"Horse" and "sauce" also rhyme in my UK English, but they do not rhyme in the English of many of the voters. As such, I would refrain from rhyming them in a limerick intended for an international audience.

Similarly, if you overrule the pronunciation of the R in Horsted, then the words I chose for the end of line one in my submission no longer rhyme to American readers (because they will read the R in the equivalent word.)

As it happens, all of this analysis has caused me to realise that my line five rhyme will not satisfy our American cousins, so I would like to withdraw my submission. (Plus, after all my waffling, it's no longer likely to be anonymous.)

If you could possibly provide a definitive ruling as to whether 'Hors' is pronounced 'horse' or not, (to everybody I mean,) then I may attempt to scrawl another one.

Thanks lots

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alphabet Soup,

You're making it all too hard Alphabet. My understanding of the actual definition of limericks is that you are only required to rhyme the last syllable if it is stressed or the last 2 syllables if it is not. So what you do with 3rd last syllable really doesn't matter.

Oh. Ok then.

Having said that however I always try to rhyme all the syllables in the place name if I possibly can. Check out my masterpiece in the Yackandandah game where I managed to more or less rhyme the last 5 syllables in each of lines 1, 2 & 5. Hopefully you'll think more more than less.

I think that most of us here are aware of the differences caused by rhotic and non-rhotic accents, and are used to making allowances.

As for the "Kaynes"/Keynes" pronunciation, I have heard one person (i think) use the former but everyone else has said it to rhyme with "beans". I suspect the writer of that website is in a minority - probably in his/her own village.

quote:

Originally posted by arnie:
I think that most of us here are aware of the differences caused by rhotic and non-rhotic accents, and are used to making allowances.

As for the "Kaynes"/Keynes" pronunciation, I have heard one person (i think) use the former but everyone else has said it to rhyme with "beans". I suspect the writer of that website is in a minority - probably in his/her own village.

I'm happy to make allowances, but in order to do so I'd need to know whether it's 'horse' or 'hauce'. And, as I said, if it's been defined as 'hauce' then the rhyme I've already written, doesn't.

However, as it is apparently irrelevant, and I have withdrawn that limerick, it's no longer a problem.

As far as the writer of the website being a minority goes, it should be noted that that wasn't the only source I provided. There is also a link to a video. There are five of these videos in total. In them, every single person, newscasters and locals alike, pronounce it Kaynes.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alphabet Soup,

Should we even worry about it? Since Richard's vote is only in case of ties, and the rest of us are flexible, I say let's just do as we wish and let the quips fall where they may!

quote:

I'm happy to make allowances, but in order to do so I'd need to know whether it's 'horse' or 'hauce'. And, as I said, if it's been defined as 'hauce' then the rhyme I've already written, doesn't.

The British pronunciation is "hauce" or "hawce" - the "r" is never sounded in words like "horse". However, if Horsted is being rhymed with another word - be it one with an "or" or an "aw" sound - it won't matter since nobody will know what pronunciation is used, simply by reading. In fact, it's likely that the problem will be for US English speakers primarily since they wouldn't be able to rhyme "horse" with "sauce" - whereas UK English speakers would.

It seems I'm not making myself clear. However, as it is now a moot point, I don't suppose it matters.

quote:

"Horse" and "sauce" also rhyme in my UK English, but they do not rhyme in the English of many of the voters. As such, I would refrain from rhyming them in a limerick intended for an international audience.

From my non-England point of view, I'd not vote for a limerick that rhymes those two words. They don't work for me, just as "finer" and "China" didn't in the last contest. As we all know, there are differences in pronunciations, both within England as well as within the US. To make things even more complicated, the east coast in the US is closer to the English pronunciations than the rest of the US is. Whatever works for us we should submit and if no one votes for it, so be it.

This is supposed to be fun. Let's keep it that way!

Horse and sauce I can understand (US speakers would say "sauce" much as do we but pronounce "horse" a bit like "horus"). But how can "China" be pronounced so that it doesn't rhyme with "finer"?

Well, first of all, I am being persnickety, mostly because you were being that way. However, were I an anal rhymer (and I am not; I love fun rhymes and limericks), I'd say they didn't rhyme because "er" to Americans (except on the east coast) is a different sound from "a". But, in all fairness, they are very close.

I'll get one to you soon.

Oh, my. I just sent one, and that has to be one of the hardest of all the limericks. I hope Bob has a go at this one! I can't wait to see the rest of yours, though I'll be embarrassed to see mine in the poll.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard English:
Horse and sauce I can understand (US speakers would say "sauce" much as do we but pronounce "horse" a bit like "horus"). But how can "China" be pronounced so that it doesn't rhyme with "finer"?

It can't. Finer, on the other hand, can very easily be pronounced so that it doesn't rhyme with China. Just sound the "r".

And I thought that the Mills Brothers and Bing Crosby were Americans:

Dinah, is there anyone finer
In the state of Carolina?
If there is and you know her,
Show her to me

Dinah, finer, Carolina - all perfect rhymes for me and the Old Groaner

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Oh, my. I just sent one, and that has to be one of the hardest of all the limericks. I hope Bob has a go at this one! I can't wait to see the rest of yours, though I'll be embarrassed to see mine in the poll.

I really didn't mean for it to be hard; I eschewed "Bluebell" in favour of "Horsted Keynes" as I thought it would be easier.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Oh, my. I just sent one, and that has to be one of the hardest of all the limericks. I hope Bob has a go at this one! I can't wait to see the rest of yours, though I'll be embarrassed to see mine in the poll.

Don't worry, you can hang around with me in the zero points club. We can spike our hair and get tattoos and sneer at everyone else with their apple polishing limericks that actually accrue votes. So uncool. Gah!

Not to worry, Alphie, I'll be in the Zero Points Club with you two! Ah, well, it's the effort that counts - right?

quote:

Don't worry, you can hang around with me in the zero points club. We can spike our hair and get tattoos and sneer at everyone else with their apple polishing limericks that actually accrue votes. So uncool. Gah!

Well, then. I am going to vote for the most unvoteable. Maybe it will be yours!

In all seriousness, I have found the #2s often suffer in this game because it's only everyone's #1 limerick that gets votes. Ah well. Who said life was fair?

When I made the poll for the Cina Lake round, I noticed that you can post more than one poll at a time (or, that's how it appeared, anyway.) I was tempted to run a second poll asking what people's second favourite lim'rick was, to see whether a sort of points based system would generate a different outcome from the first past the post type ballot. (Just for fun, that is, not to actually count as a result.)

However, I decided that it might be a little overambitious, considering it was my first attempt at running a poll, and shelved the idea. (And I'm very glad I did, all things considered. )

Sounds as if you work as a statistician, Alphie!
Interesting idea!

quote:

Sounds as if you work as a statistician, Alphie!

Nah, just trying to increase the chances of maybe acquiring a vote.

Half a dozen contributors so far. Any more before I set up the poll?

Last chance, everyone. I'll set up the poll on Saurday. Remember, you can enter more than one limerick.