jheem said, "By untranslatable, do you mean that there is no single word in language X that means, denotes, and connotes exactly the same as some arbitrary single word in language Y? If so, then all words are untranslatable. But if you allow me to translate word z from language X by paraphrasing or borrowing it, then no words are untranslatable."

This may be a big enough question to merit its own thread.

My thought: jheem's position comes down to saying, "Depending on what you mean by 'untranslatable', either everything is untranslatable or nothing us untranslatable. Or put differently, "Depending on what 'translate means, translation is either never possible or always possible.

It seems to me that this is an unduly binary, black-and-white view of what 'translation' means. I'd think that translation is a matter of degree: some translations are better (in one manner or another) than others, and accuracy is a matter of closeness, not of absolute perfection. An similarly, the concepts of some foreign words are more accurately expressible in English, and more easily expressible, than others.

At least roughly speaking. Thoughts?

It seems to me that this is an unduly binary, black-and-white view of what 'translation' means. I'd think that translation is a matter of degree

It's binary, because that's how Wordcrafter set up this experiment. Untranslatable words! not vaguely translatable or kinda translatable. What Rheingold seems to mean by untranslatable is that there are some (single) words in non-English languages that do not have a single English word with the equivalent meaning. If his book of words is truly untranslatable, why is not simply a single page with a list of foreign words on it?

I'd argue that conceptually there may well be untranslatable words regardless of what is meant by translation. You'd have no way of knowing because by definition there would be no way of expressing the concept in the target language.
If I speak language X and us Xians have a word spluddelfop which is untranslatable then I can't possibly explain to you what it is or why it's untranslatable because if I could then it wouldn't be.
There's no conceptual difficulty in the existence of untranslatable words. Of course as the concept couldn't possibly exist all discussion of spluddelfop as a word would be intrinsically meaningless.

If I speak language X and us Xians have a word spluddelfop which is untranslatable then I can't possibly explain to you what it is or why it's untranslatable because if I could then it wouldn't be.

Exactly, but I have never personally seen or heard an untranslatable word. I find it hard to believe that given enough time and talent, some Xian cannot explain spluddelfop to a non-Xian. Because, given enough time, I can learn X and have spluddelfop explained in in X. Unless there exist languages that cannot be learned. And if that is so, how to children learn X? (Are they hard-wired to speak X?) Nope, I just don't buy it.

quote:

Originally posted by jheem:
If I speak language X and us Xians have a word spluddelfop which is untranslatable then I can't possibly explain to you what it is or why it's untranslatable because if I could then it wouldn't be.

Exactly, but I have never personally seen or heard an untranslatable word. I find it hard to believe that given enough time and talent, some Xian cannot explain spluddelfop to a non-Xian. Because, given enough time, I can learn X and have spluddelfop explained in in X. Unless there exist languages that cannot be learned. And if that is so, how to children learn X? (Are they hard-wired to speak X?) Nope, I just don't buy it.

You might well be able to learn X but in my (admittedly far fetched) scenario you would never reach native competency because you could never understand spluddelfop. I'll grant that as all human brains are wired up the same way and all human languages are the products of human brains this is unlikely to become a problem until we meet aliens from the planet X.
It's probably a question that I won't bother raising in my Second Language Acquisition class as the lecturer is far too easily distracted as it is.

Actually I may come back to this later - it might be much later - because I've just had an idea for a strict logical proof of the potential for the existence of untranslatable words in every language. It needs a lot of thinking about though.

his is unlikely to become a problem until we meet aliens from the planet X.

But, remember: "Language is a virus from outer space."

I look forward to your proof ...

quote:

I'll grant that as all human brains are wired up the same way and all human languages are the products of human brains this is unlikely to become a problem until we meet aliens from the planet X.

It's already a problem with cetaceans.

Traduttore, traditore. An Italian proverb: translator, traitor.

George Steiner wrote a wonderful book that should appeal to many word-people: After Babel: Aspects of Language and Translation, (1st ed.) 1975, (2nd ed.) 1998. It's still in print or can be easily found used.

I've always felt that the Asterix series illustrated well how to translate difficult texts.

While googling this morning, I came a cross this nicely written and succinct page on the concept of untranslatability.

I don't think it's words that are untranslateable so much as concepts. We describe most things by analogy and comparison, in the belief that those we are sharing data with, have the same experiences and concepts as do we.

But, to take a very obvious example, a person totally blind from birth would have no concept of the colour red - except as an abract. So, although the word can translate readily into other languages, our blind man would know only that the English word "red" translates into the Spanish "rojo" or the German "rot". He would never be able to truly understand the concept of colour, only the theory of it. Amd if you don't believe this, try describing the colour "red" so that it will be understood by someone who has never been able to see.

So any word that describes a completely unshared concept will be untranslateable unless and until both parties understand the concept. And the more alien the concept the longer that will take.

Some more questions:

(1a) Do texts written in dead, unknown languages have meaning?

(1b) After and if those texts have been translated (e.g., hieroglyphic Egyptian), do they have meaning?

(1c) Is meaning in the text (utterance) or is it located somewhere inside the body of the speaker? Or the hearer? Or did it pop into existence after successful translation?

(2a) Are there some concepts that cannot be expressed in language?

(2b) Can you think of something that you cannot express?

(3) Are nonsense poems translatable? (See the numerous translations of Carroll's Jabberwocky.)

(4) Do the colors named by the terms red, rojo, and rot cover the same portion of the visible light spectrum in English, Spanish, and German?

(5a) Do congenitally blind people have a concept of color?

(5b) Do congenitally deaf people have a concept of sound?

(5c) Can the non-deaf learn to sign?

(5d) Where do concepts come from? What are their origin?

(5e) Is language a way to move concepts from one person to another?