I read the 'when your accent gets you in trouble' thread and it reminded me of how often I get into trouble, simply by being Australian. And funnily enough, I'm now witnessing my stepdaughter going through the same thing on the net.

The internet facilitates worldwide contact, but the cultural diversity can sometimes prove difficult.

Australians joke about most things and are irreverent about much. What we find is that other cultures - and I'm talking about other English speaking cultures - don't get us.

I can't begin to tell you often I have offended (apparently) without any clue that I have. The number of times I've received responses indicating some personal hurt that astounds me, well... astounds me!

And today, my stepdaughter announced the same problem. She said, "I don't understand... I was in a chatroom, mucking around... and suddenly I'm banned. But I was kidding! Why on EARTH would they think I really meant it. NO-ONE would be stupid enough to say what I said and MEAN it!"

hehe.... I sympathised totally

It's funny. And it shows that language, written or spoken, can mean sooooooooooooo many different things to so many people.

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Australians joke about most things and are irreverent about much. What we find is that other cultures - and I'm talking about other English speaking cultures - don't get us.

I think you are not alone in this. I joke about everything and am irreverent about most things. I've found that not even my own culture understands! My generation is sarcastic, holds nothing reverent and enjoys sophomoric humor, and I just take it a little further than every one else. People who aren't native English speakers rarely understand anything I say, since I employ like metaphor and metonymy in everything I say.

I'll give an example, which some of you may enjoy. We were discussing minimum wage at lunch, and a friend gave the arguments against it. I said, "Against minimum wage? You freaking Commie". At which point he attempted to explained to me that Communists would be for a minumum wage, but of course I already knew that. I thought I'd made a quite witty comment, playing off the use of "Commie" to describe an someone being un-American.

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I thought I'd made a quite witty comment, playing off the use of "Commie" to describe an someone being un-American.

You should know that it is a heinous crime to describe an Anerican thus...

I think the problem is, like the British sense of humour, much of the humour from Oz relies on irony. Unfortunately, many Americans don't do irony ...

(Present company excepted, of course!)

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Unfortunately, many Americans don't do irony ...

Which is in itself rather ironic.

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I think the problem is, like the British sense of humour, much of the humour from Oz relies on irony. Unfortunately, many Americans don't do irony ...

Why do you assume it was Americans that booted her from the chatroom ... or were you being ironic?

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Why do you assume it was Americans

I don't. I merely mention one big difference ...

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My generation is sarcastic, holds nothing reverent and enjoys sophomoric humor, and I just take it a little further than every one else.

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I think the problem is, like the British sense of humour, much of the humour from Oz relies on irony. Unfortunately, many Americans don't do irony

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You should know that it is a heinous crime to describe an Anerican thus...

I think these are all generalizations that just don't hold water either across generations (as in Sean's statement) or the American culture (as in Richard's and Arnie's statements).

Sean, I surely would have thought that a funny comment (and I am not in your generation) and wouldn't have started analyzing the principles of Communism (though, of course, maybe the speaker was just being ironic ).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

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I think these are all generalizations that just don't hold water either across generations (as in Sean's statement) or the American culture (as in Richard's and Arnie's statements).

All generalisations can be attacked on the basis that they don't apply to all. Nevertheless they have value.

So far as being "anti-American" is concerned, am I not correct that at one time it was a federal offence to engage in "un-American" activities? It was certainly once an offence to be a Communist.

I see that my use of the word "many" and my caveat "Present company excepted, of course!" have gone unheeded. Ironic, really.

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It was certainly once an offence to be a Communist.

You mean a criminal offense? I don't believe you're correct. Citation please?

Was there anticommunist hysteria? Of course. Was it ever illegal merely to be a communist? I don't believe that it was. Of course, communisists could be jailed for illegal activities -- just like anyone else -- but not (insofar as I know) merely for being party members.

I think part of the problem is that almost no one in my generation has any clue what "ironic" means. Using the word "irony" when what you are referring to is not ironic, is itself ironic. For example, the song "Ironic", refers to a series of things, none of which are ironic, which means the song itself is some kind of "meta-irony".

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You should know that it is a heinous crime to describe an Anerican thus...

Not really, unless you are joking. It is a fairly common joke to call someone a Communist these days.

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So far as being "anti-American" is concerned, am I not correct that at one time it was a federal offence to engage in "un-American" activities? It was certainly once an offence to be a Communist.

It certainly was, in Bizarro-world America. Where do you get this stuff? There have been many Communist Party presidential candidates, on the ballot, in the US. No doubt some entity, somewhere, at some time (there are 50 states and tens of thousands of municipalities after all) made it illegal to be a Communist, but such a law is unconstitutional.

It is, however, illegal to plot to overthrow the government or conduct espionage for a foreign government.

Isn't it still illegal to be a member of the IRA in Great Britain?

Finally, yes, in the 1950's there was a House Un-American Activities Commission that embarrassed themselves and everyone else. I don't think such attitudes are unique to the US; look at the recent flap over the toilet that played the Italian national anthem and was seized for "insulting the Italian state". However, in the US, it has never been a federal offense.

About the only people I call Commies these days are conservative coworkers (after they've taken some paid vacation or sick-leave) and myself (when speaking with coworkers from former Warsaw Pact countries to get a rise out of them).

Disaffected youth #1: Here comes that cannonball guy. He's cool.
Disaffected youth #2: Are you being sarcastic, dude?
Disaffected youth #1: I don't even know anymore.
(Dialog from The Simpsons "Homerpalooza" episode)

See The Simpsons, Hyper-Irony, and the Meaning of Life by Carl Matheson.

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All generalisations can be attacked on the basis that they don't apply to all. Nevertheless they have value.

I disagree; we've talked about this before so I won't start the conversation again. However, generalizations are very close to stereotyping. For example, are all Jews greedy? (I chose my generalization carefully, since I am Jewish.) You can see where I am going with this...

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I think part of the problem is that almost no one in my generation has any clue what "ironic" means.

You do think in terms of your generation, don't you? I don't buy all the generational differences that people talk about, but I certainly hear about generational differences in many of the lectures I attend. I have often publicly disagreed with these speakers. Of course, there are always some differences, just because of changing times. For example, the younger generation was raised with computers and electronics and definitely can program the VCR with no problem, while the older generations call their kids for help.

However, the basic characteristics I don't think are different (and there is a fine line, I know). For example, my 3 kids certainly understand what "irony" is, while I am certain some of my baby boomer colleagues have no idea. I am also confident that there are plenty of people in England who don't know what irony is. It's a matter of your background and education.

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I see that my use of the word "many" and my caveat "Present company excepted, of course!" have gone unheeded. Ironic, really.

Well, first, sorry for not heeding that part of your comment. But secondly, your caveat was only to those Americans on this board. I think most Americans do do irony. I think that is a big UK myth.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

I had always thought that this British contention of us not understanding irony had something to do with a cultural difference in styles of humor, but after looking around at various dictionaries I think what it boils down to is that a new meaning of irony, as synonymous with coincidental, has been developing. So, it's just the same old, same old.

But seriously, the older meaning of irony is the contrast between apparent and intended meanings (going with the A-H definition) of an utterance). I wonder if ironic statements are more like idioms, and therefore learned and incomprehensible to those who do not know them.

The etymology is interesting: Greek ειρωνεια (eirōneia 'feigned ignorance') from ειρων (eirōn 'dissembler') via Latin and French.

[Fixed typo.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

The proto-Indo-European root is *wer "to speak", and from this we also get word from Germanic, and verb from Latin.

Zmjezhd, you quoted one of my favorite Simpsons passages, one which I had thought about quoting earlier in this topic.

one of my favorite Simpsons passages

Yup, I like it, too, and I've thought of it constantly while reading this thread.

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You mean a criminal offense? I don't believe you're correct. Citation please?

My knowledge of US history is not as good as it might be. However, I do remember the McCarthy nonsense and I can tell you that, years ago, when applying for a US visa, one of the questions was, "Are you, or have you ever been, a member of the Communist party?" Answer "yes" and you didn't get the visa.

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Not really, unless you are joking. It is a fairly common joke to call someone a Communist these days.

I was joking and my comment was that a "heinous crime" was supposed to refer generally to being critical of the USA or Americans.

Calling Americans "un-American" is rather like kissing a hornets' next, in my experience.

Edited for typos.

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Calling Americans "un-American" is rather like kissing a hornets' next, in my experience.

Interesting. When (and more importantly, why,) did you kiss a hornets' nest, Richard?

Calling Americans "un-American" is rather like kissing a hornets' next, in my experience.

And, yet, you keep on kissing. I am quite critical of the USA, both its government, its people, and their culture, but nobody likes hearing criticism, whether well deserved or not, from foreigners. If you wish to be critical of your own country, queen, and her subjects, I'd be happy to sit back, read, and enjoy. There's really no criticism like self-criticism. But, I've found that you just take inordinate delight in stirring up a hornets' nest as foreplay to the osculation proper. Mind you, this is hardly a criticism, as I believe you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Now. back to words. I've often wanted to see HUAC (House Un-American Activities Committee) verbed. I imagine it would be pronounced like whack.

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Originally posted by arnie:
I see that my use of the word "many" and my caveat "Present company excepted, of course!" have gone unheeded. Ironic, really.

Yeah, well, we're off to the races, as usual!

Even face to face it's not always obvious to people that you are just putting them on. I often say things deadpan, strictly for the humor, and have found, especially now that I am older, that I really have to watch it,