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The Common Man

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November 25, 2004, 08:57
wordcrafter
The Common Man
"Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us." Apocrypha, Ecclesiasticus 44:1.
This week we focus on the latter: the common man, the man of the streets.

hoi polloi – the common people generallyAnd as long as we're in Greek words: demos – the common people; the populace
November 26, 2004, 01:37
neveu
I thought hoi polloi was what Alexander Graham Bell proposed for the telephone greeting.

And isn't hoi the definite article in Greek? So shouldn't it either be "on foot with hoi polloi" or "on foot with the polloi"? How did this article manage to stow away on this word in first place? I notice demos isn't still dragging its article around.
November 26, 2004, 06:29
jheem
And isn't hoi the definite article in Greek?

Yes, the masculine nominative plural one at that.

So shouldn't it either be "on foot with hoi polloi" or "on foot with the polloi"?

Hard to say. Russian has no articles, so should we eschew the when speaking about the intelligentsia, some apparatchik, or the KGB? Probably not. I'm also torn about whether to decline Latin or Greek nouns depending on their function in English sentences.

How did this article manage to stow away on this word in first place? I notice demos isn't still dragging its article around.

Ah, here's the interesting question. Note sure, but it did.
November 26, 2004, 14:38
wordcrafter
third estate – the commons (especially in Britain or France) viewed as forming a political order having representation in a parliament
November 26, 2004, 15:29
neveu
quote:
Hard to say. Russian has no articles, so should we eschew _the_ when speaking about the _intelligentsia_, some _apparatchik_, or the _KGB_? Probably not.

I never hear anyone say 'the le mot juste', but perhaps that phrase hasn't been picked up by hoi monolingual polloi.
November 26, 2004, 16:54
wordcrafter
[double-post deleted]

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November 26, 2004, 18:26
jheem
I never hear anyone say 'the le mot juste'

I just got back from shopping at the El Cerrito Plaza Shopping Center. Nota the double definite articles bene. And you hear people speak of the Alhambra in Spain all the time. It's probably on a phrase by phrase basis. (And in the news, notice that when Ukraine gained independence from the old USSR, they forced everybody to stop saying the Ukraine.)
November 26, 2004, 19:31
Caterwauller
I always laugh at
The La Brea Tar Pits, which would translate to The the tar tar pits . . .


*******
"Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions.
~Dalai Lama
November 26, 2004, 22:07
neveu
quote:
I just got back from shopping at the El Cerrito Plaza Shopping Center. _Nota_ the double definite articles _bene_. And you hear people speak of the Alhambra in Spain all the time. It's probably on a phrase by phrase basis. (And in the news, notice that when Ukraine gained independence from the old USSR, they forced everybody to stop saying the Ukraine.)

Yeah, but these have become names. I can't think of any other foreign word that comes with its article. I can think of phrases, like la dolce vida and le mot juste, but no other words.
When I was in Ukraine I was told that 'Ukraine' comes from the word for outland, and that 'the Ukraine' implied the outlands, relative to the despised Moscow, presumably. 'Ukraine' is a name, 'the Ukraine' is a point of view.
November 27, 2004, 04:40
jheem
Ukraine means border area or buffer zone. It's like the German / English word Mark / March.

About El Cerrito vs hoi polloi is that most Californians can identify the 'el' as the definite article in Spanish, but not many would be able to identify the 'hoi' in hoi polloi as an article, definite or indefinite. El Cerrito means the little hill in Spanish, and there's an El Cerrito Hill nearby.
November 27, 2004, 07:08
wordnerd
quote:
Originally posted by neveu:
I can't think of any other foreign word that comes with its article. I can think of phrases, like la dolce vida and le mot juste, but no other words.
Alcohol, and some similary words such as alchemy. The al- prefix is the Arabic definite article, "the".

Curious that that particular group seems to have come over into English with the article included. neveu is correct that it's an unusual phenomenon, and I wonder why the unusual seems to have happened quite a fair bit in this particular case.
November 27, 2004, 08:59
jheem
Curious that that particular group seems to have come over into English with the article included.

It's not English's fault. The words were mainly borrowed from Spanish, either directly or via French.
November 27, 2004, 15:52
wordcrafter
proletarian – of the commonalty, of the lowest class of people; hence, mean; vile; vulgar. (noun: a member of the working class). proletariat – the laboring class; the poorest class of wage earners
[Latin proletarius, of the lowest (propertyless) class of Roman citizens. Akin to the word prolific. The concept was that their only use to the state was to breed the next generation of soldiers, for they were unneeded as workers (for slaves can do the work), and useless for anything more. ]

There are so many interesting quotes today that I cannot stop at just one or two. (ellipses omitted).
November 28, 2004, 12:17
wordcrafter
salariat – the class or body of salaried persons usually as distinguished from wage earners.
[presumably a take-off on proletariat]

Yesterday's quotations included W. Somerset Maugham's reference to a "the white-collar proletariat". Today we see the "white-collar salariat".
November 28, 2004, 19:01
wordcrafter
plebeian – one of the common people or lower classes; also, a coarse, crude, or vulgar person. (adj: of or pertaining to the common people; also, vulgar; common; crude or coarse)

Samuel Johnson, on the importance of using proper words rather than plebeian words:
November 30, 2004, 09:08
wordcrafter
As today's two words are somewhat slippery in meaning, I have "massaged" the definitions.

lumpenproletariat – 1. the lowest stratum of the proletariat (that is, of wage-slaves)
2. the most degraded underclass, on the margins of society: vagrants, street-criminals, prostitutes, the homeless [But see notes below.]
[from Marxist theory, using roots from two separate languages. Lump is Ger. rags, ragamuffin; while proletariat is from F and ult. from L.]

The first quote illustrates the meaning well. The second shows that in usage, though not in the dictionaries, you can find this word in the sense of lumpen2-3,: degraded or alienated folk, not necessarily low-class. lumpen (from lumpenproletariat) – 1. adj. or noun: of the lumpenproletariat
2. degraded, stupid, boorish, and uninterested in improving (also, vulgar or common)
3. of persons (not necessarily low-class) cut off from their normal economic/social class: lumpen intellectuals, jobless PhD's forced to drive a taxicab
4. (perhaps influenced by 'lumpy'?) lumpy, heavy and misshapen


Notes:
1.The Marxist term has the sense of "lacking in class identification and solidarity", a sense that persists in lumpen3.
2. Many dictionaries speak of "lowest proletarians, such as vagrants". I disagree. "Proletarian" refers to wage-earners (not to lower-class) and thus excludes "vagrants and criminals".

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November 30, 2004, 18:33
Seanahan
Babylon 5 has a great word "Lurker". It was used to describe the homeless, poor, stranded people who inhabited the under areas of the space station, an area with much crime. This is a good word, I think.
November 30, 2004, 19:43
Hic et ubique
I think it's a great word too, but pardon my ignorance ... what's Babylon 5?
December 01, 2004, 18:05
Hic et ubique
Gilbert and Sullivan, Iolanthe:
December 01, 2004, 18:31
Caterwauller
quote:
Originally posted by Hic et ubique:
I think it's a great word too, but pardon my ignorance ... what's Babylon 5?


Sci-Fi tv show . . . read here.


*******
"Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions.
~Dalai Lama