Dialect Blog has a post about the distinction between Pub/Bar.

What do people here think the difference is?

REminds me of the bear that entered a bar and asked for a beer. A woman at the end of the bar yelled to the bartender, "Don't give that bear a beer."
The bear again asked the bartender for a drink and agian the woman hollered, "Don't give thtbear a beer."
The bear walked to the end of the bar and chewed on the woman, then came back and asked for a drink.
"Sorry," said the bartender. "We don't serve druggies in here."
"What makes you think I'm a druggie?" asked the bear.
"Well, that was a barbituate."

Would you have a "bartender" in a pub?

Until very recently they've allowed smoking in all such places in the USA, so I've avoided them like the plague, and am therefore not qualified to reply. However, I'd guess that a bar is just for consuming alcohol, whereas a pub would be for food and drink. Then there's the bar and grill, so the distinction blurs - even while sober.

As I commented on dialect blog there as a very clear distinction in the usage of the two words where I am from.
In my dialect a "pub" is a building where you purchase alcohol for consumption on the premises.
A bar by contrast is a room with the same purpose. It could be a single room in a pub but it could just as easily be in a hotel, a restaurant, an airport, a railway station or whatever.
The distinction is that a pub is always a building and a bar is always a room.

quote:

Originally posted by BobHale:
The distinction is that a pub is always a building and a bar is always a room.

What about a "wine bar"? That's a building rather than a single room, certainly as far as I'm concerned.

I've been struggling to come up with a simple distinction between the two but I'm finding it very difficult. I certainly think that in a "pub" the main drink on sale needs to be beer of some sort - to me a "wine bar", "vodka bar" or "cocktail bar" doesn't fit the definition of a "pub", even if they do sell beer as well. I also tend to think of a "pub" as a place with a number of real ales on tap, and if an establishment specializes in trendy lagers then it strikes me as more of a "bar". But I'm not sure if there's a hard-and-fast distinction.

"Wine bar" is a red herring. It has no more connection with the words as they are used in isolation than "salad bar" does. It's a collocation that has its own specific meaning independent of the meanings of the individual components.

To me the range of drinks sold in a pub or bar (not wine,vodka, cocktail or salad)is exactly the same.

I would NEVER say "I'm going to the bar" unless

a) I was already in the pub and was referring to the serving area

or

b) I was somewhere like a hotel, in my room, and about to go to their "bar".

If I were talking about going to a building such as the one I will be found in tomorrow afternoon (The Black Eagle) it would ALWAYS, without exception, be referred to as "the pub".
Similarly if I were in that hotel room and wanting to go down for a pre-dinner drink I would NEVER call it "the pub" always "the bar".

Having said that the only exceptions I can think of are places where, probably because they think its trendy, the owners have chosen to NAME their establishment "The Something Bar" but even then if I didn't use the name itself I'd use the word "pub".

quote:

In my dialect a "pub" is a building where you purchase alcohol for consumption on the premises.
A bar by contrast is a room with the same purpose. It could be a single room in a pub but it could just as easily be in a hotel, a restaurant, an airport, a railway station or whatever.

Well, Bob, if you recall, when I first met you and arnie, we met in the RR station...in a pub. So I am confused about your dialect.

We talked about pubs vs. bars today on the chat. For me, a pub and bar are the same, though often the word "pub" automatically gives the "bar" a more sophisticated feel. "Pubs" do have British food often, such as Shepard Pies or chicken pot pies. But sometimes they don't. At least that's my experience, both here in Chicago and from my U.S. travels.

quote:

often the word "pub" automatically gives the "bar" a more sophisticated feel.

It's probably the other way round here. In general, pubs are more down-to-earth and "homey". Bars are thought of as rather more up-market and "corporate". Of course, there are exceptions in both cases.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
"Pubs" do have British food often, such as Shepard Pies or chicken pot pies.

I've never heard of "chicken pot pies", but a Google search suggests they're a North American dish! See here for instance.

"Shepherd's pie" is well known over here, but I've never seen the spelling "shepard pie", though it seems to be recognized on Google. Is it the same thing?

As far as the level of "sophistication" is concerned, I suspect that British-style pubs may appear more sophisticated to customers in the US because they're seen as exotic, just as some American-style bars do over here. But then I suspect that the American concept of a British pub is a little different from the real thing.

To further confuse the issue, where does "Tavern" fit in?

No-one ever talks about "going to the tavern" nowadays, just as they don't use "inn". They are only used in the names of pubs/bars.

quote:

I've never heard of "chicken pot pies", but a Google search suggests they're a North American dish! See here for instance.

"Shepherd's pie" is well known over here, but I've never seen the spelling "shepard pie", though it seems to be recognized on Google. Is it the same thing?

Sorry for the misspelling for Shepherd's. As for chicken pot pie, I always thought it was a British dish because it's sold that way at our English pubs. Another dish we see at our "traditional English pubs" is a ploughman's lunch.

Cookery isn't one of my strong points, I admit. I've never seen any spelling other than "shepherd's pie", but if you type "shepard pie" into Google it accepts it without asking whether you meant "shepherd's pie", so it may be a legitimate variant in some areas - alternatively it may be a common enough misspelling that Google recognizes it. The etymology is definitely from the ordinary noun "shepherd" though.

As for "pot pies", I'm confused now. I've certainly never heard the term in Britain, and the first quote here suggests that the term is American in origin. However the second quote says "if they were a specialty anywhere, it was in the British Isles"! Perhaps the recipe originated over here but the terminology is American. I can't think of a specialized British term for the things though.

The "ploughman's lunch" is an interesting one. The popular story is that it's a fake "traditional" dish, invented around 1960 as a marketing ploy to sell British cheese in pubs, but the truth may be a little more complex.
There's an interesting article about its origins here, which dates the first recorded mention to 1957, and remarks:

quote:

The dish wasn’t invented by marketing men in the 1960s, but revived by the Cheese Board, representatives of Britain’s cheese makers, in the 1950s, and the name Ploughman’s Lunch might be marketing flannel, but it seems to have its roots in authenticity.

It was certainly a favourite of mine as a child - I have fond memories of my father taking me to the local pub for a "ploughman's" on a Saturday lunchtime!

I love the ploughman's lunch, too.

Yes, it looks like the concept of the pot pie (which is really what counts, isn't it?) originated in England, though perhaps not the name.

quote:

About chicken pot pie
Primary evidence suggests recipes for chicken pot pie (in concept, but not name) were known in England as far back as the Middle Ages. As one would expect, these early meat pies were quite different from ones we know today. Robert May's Accomplist Cook [1685] lists several recipes for poultry pies (chicken, turkey, pheasant etc.). These generally still relied on Medieval flavors: pepper, salt, nutmeg, orange juice, lemon, chestnuts, mace, sugar, gooseberries, barberries, grapes etc. Vegetables were sometimes employed:

" artichock bottoms, or the tops of boild sparagus...Otherways for the liquoring or garnishing of these Pies, for variety you may put in them boil'd skirrets, bottom of artichokes boil'd, or boil'd cabbidge lettice...whole onions being baked...Or bake them with candied lettice stalks, potatoes..."
---The Accomplisht Cook, Robert May, facsimile 1685 edition [Prospect Booksevon] 2000 (p. 212-3)

We certainly have the concept of a pie baked in a ceramic or metal container.
We certainly sell them and buy them in pubs.

To the best of my knowledge we just don't call them "pot pies". We simply call them pies.

I agree. I would simply refer to the aforementioned dish as "chicken pie", without any qualification.

So why do Americans add the "pot", then? Is the term "pie" ambiguous over there?

You've got me, Guy. I only know what it's called, not why it's called that.

From the OED Online:

quote:

pot-pie, n.

Chiefly U.S.

1. Brit. regional. A dish made from cubed meat, covered with a layer of dough and stewed in a pot. rare.

2. U.S. Originally: a pie filled with meat, game, fruit, etc., and cooked in a pot or a deep pie pan. Now also more generally: a pie, typically with a savoury filling of meat and vegetables.

3. U.S. A meat fricassee with dumplings. rare.

A pot-pie now is more apt to be meat-based with vegetables and baked in a casserole dish than a pot, but the "pot" still remains, perhaps to differentiate it from a "pie," which is usually (not always) fruit-based and baked in a shallow pie pan. So it seems to me that, essentially, if it has meat (or chicken, etc.), it's a pot-pie. If it has fruit, it's a pie. The only pies I can think of that are not made with fruit are rhubarb and chocolate pies.

I've never heard of that third definition.

That makes sense, Tinman.

I think here in America we think of "pub" and "bar" as synonyms, but with "pub" being the British word for "bar." And how wrong I am about that, apparently, reading all of the above. As for "tavern," though the word conveys a sort of lower-class "bar" in the U.S., in fact, in our own neighborhood, The Trappe Tavern is a favorite gathering place/ watering hole/sports bar that serves really excellent food, and where families often dine out together. They even sometimes serve pot pies and "All-you-can-eat crab legs" on Monday nights.

Wordmatic

When I think of "tavern," I think of the old radio program, "Duffy's Tavern." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duffy's_Tavern

I think of Cheers.