...at least here in the US.

I was talking to a friend of mine, made the 'gobble gobble' noise, talking about turkey. Then wondered about the "gobble" in the sense of eating enormously and its relation to that sound.

Especially this time of year.

( I do know a bit about the turkey etymology, but haven't run across this one.)

I suspect that the "gobble-gobble" sound of a turkey is just as close as we English speakers can come to approximating the real sound that they make, so the idea of excess consumption is in no way related to uh, "talking turkey."

Now, if we had, as Ben Franklin had suggested, adopted the turkey, not the bald eagle, as thie national symbol, would we be eating eagle instead?

BLEAHHHH!

BTW, why is it that one sees advertisements for feeding the homeless/hungry only on Thanksgiving and Christmas? I'll bet those folks get mighty hungry the other ten months!

Dictionary.com says that "gobble", meaning to devour in greedy gulps, comes from Middle English gobben, to drink greedily, probably from gobbe, lump, mouthful. However, the word meaning to make a sound like a turkey is imitative of the actual sound. The two meanings of "gobble" are therefore unrelated.

I've always believed that if you live your life right, every day is Thanksgiving.

And, yes, we do tend to focus on the hungry far more at the end of the year than elsewhen (note the neat new coinage there, thank you very much) and no, it's just not right.

Given the history of Thanksgiving, one would assume that this is a strictly U.S. holiday but I wouldn't be surprised to hear it has been transplanted elsewhere. Is this the case? As holidays go, I'd say it's one of the best.

quote:

---

elsewhen (note the neat new coinage there, thank you very much)

---

From the "Modern Coinages" thread, you know how much I like coinages. So, I couldn't sit still for this one! No, it is not in Onelook or Dictionary.com, but look what I found!

quote:

---

As holidays go, I'd say it's one of the best.

---

I'm with you, CJ. It is my favorite. As a Catholic who converted to Judaism, well, the religious holidays don't bring our families together. So, Thanksgiving is my absolute favorite!

Just as an aside (because it's too late and I'm too tired) elsewhen has been a popular coinage among sci-fi writers for at least thirty years, maybe more. When I can be bothered to find them I'll cite examples.

Why should I let the toad work
Squat on my life ?
Can't I use my wit as a pitchfork
And drive the brute off ?
Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.

Somewhere around here I've got a collection of sci-fi stories entitled, Anywhere, Anywhen. Not the same, but a fun coinge all the same.

Oh, well. There I go again thinking I'm being clever when actually I'm old news once again. Nothing new under the sun, and all that.

To further meld this Thanksgiving thread (and I'm still waiting for U.K. input to my above post) with the new coinage thread elsewhere, allow me to say that "my" word Backwords claimed elsewhere also seems to have a history I wasn't aware of.

I liked the "Trazom Effect" and, on a related note, once worked with a magician named Trebor. Oh, and do you know what cheese is made backwards? (Wait a minute! Damn, old news again!!)

Well I don't know about elsewhere but Thanksgiving isn't a holiday that's observed here at all except perhaps by Americans living here.

Why should I let the toad work
Squat on my life ?
Can't I use my wit as a pitchfork
And drive the brute off ?
Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.

quote:

---

"gobble", meaning to devour in greedy gulps, comes from Middle English _gobben_, to drink greedily, probably from _gobbe_, lump, mouthful. However, the word meaning to make a sound like a turkey is imitative of the actual sound. The two meanings of "gobble" are therefore unrelated.

---

That's a fair read of the histories given by MW and AHD. But the other sources I happened to read give exactly the opposite answer.

Etymology on-line:
gobble - "eat fast," 1601, probably partly echoic, partly frequentive of gob, via gobben
gobble - "turkey noise," 1680, probably imitative

and even moreso,
Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology:
gobble(1) swallow hurredly. prob. of dial. origin
gobble(2) make the characteristic noise of a turkey. imit, but perh. suggested by prec.

No. We don't celebrate it in the UK (which is not surprising since it derives from the Pilgrim Fathers - AFTER they arrived safely in America). Neither do we celebrate Independence day, or veterans' day, or Groundhog day, or Columbus day, or Labor(sic) day, or Sadie Hawkin's day, or Hannukah or, indeed, most of the other days that seem to be common in the USA.

We do, however, celebrate Guy Fawkes day (although it's not a holiday) simply because he was the only man ever to go to the Houses of Parliament with completely honest intentions!

Richard English

quote:

---

But the other sources I happened to read give exactly the opposite answer.

---

Hardly opposite!

Etymology Online says, (my italics) "probably partly echoic" for the "eat fast" meaning, while also giving the (more likely IMO) derivation from gobben. For the "turkey noise" meaning, they agree that it is imitative.

Oxford, for the "eat fast" meaning, give "prob. of dial. origin". Presumably that means "dialect". Well, I know that a lot of Middle English words have lingered on in dialects - "gob" for "mouth" is a prime example. For the "turkey noise" meaning, again there is agreement that it is imitative, although they hazard the WAG "but perh. suggested by prec."

We do, however, celebrate Guy Fawkes day (although it's not a holiday) simply
because he was the only man ever to go to the Houses of Parliament with completely
honest intentions!
________________________________________________

Do you also have a Ned Ludd Day?

No. But there are certainly some of his followers here. Maybe an even greater percentage of the population than in the USA. Even allowing for the fact that the WWW was a British invention (along with computers and televison, of course), there are still many around who don't embrace new inventions all that rapidly.

That's probably why the roads and parks around Buckingham Palace are still gaslit.

Richard English

quote:

---

Even allowing for the fact that the WWW was a British invention (along with computers and televison, of course)

---

Isn't practically every country supposed to claim tv as its own invention? The Scottish-invented version is long obsolete: John Logie Baird's wooden method was rubbish compared to the US electrical version.

quote:

---

Isn't practically every country supposed to claim tv as its own invention?

---

Well, Graham, after reading this board, I have become convinced that the British have invented everything!

Richard, I don't know if your "Labor(sic) Day" went past everyone else, but it didn't elude me! Funny! BTW, I wouldn't exactly call Sadie Hawkins Day big here, but, as a girl, I did enjoy it! Hannukah isn't a big Jewish holiday anywhere, but I would imagine Jews in England celebrate it a bit.

Now, going back to the subject of this thread: In the Chicago Tribune's "Annual Thanksgiving Quiz", I found that "gobbledygook" was coined by a Texas congressman, Maury Maverick, in 1944. He said the bird's "gobbledy gobbling" and "ludicrous pomposity" reminded him of his bureaucratic colleague's use of obscure language.

He said the bird's "gobbledy gobbling" and "ludicrous
pomposity" reminded him of his bureaucratic colleague's use of obscure language
_________________________________________________
So, there have been turkies in Congress for quite some time!

Yes, the Brits did invent TV and computers, but were unsuccessful because they couldn't figure a way to make them leak oil.

Asa the former BMC and Rootes Group mechanic

quote:

---

Now, going back to the subject of this thread: In the Chicago Tribune's "Annual Thanksgiving Quiz", I found that "gobbledygook" was coined by a Texas congressman, Maury Maverick, in 1944. He said the bird's "gobbledy gobbling" and "ludicrous pomposity" reminded him of his bureaucratic colleague's use of obscure language.

---

One of the columnists in the Houston Chronicle had a rather entertaining Thanksgiving-themed column in the paper today.

My favorite bit from it:

"Gratitude: I'd like to take this opportunity to publicly give thanks for Houston politicians. I am relieved and grateful to find, after a season here, that they are well within the mainstream of Texas public officials.

I spent an unhappy two years a while back in Seattle, where the politicians were reasonably smart and honest, and no fun at all. So I came back to Texas."

(full text of article here)

quote:

---

No. We don't celebrate it in the UK (which is not surprising since it derives from the Pilgrim Fathers - AFTER they arrived safely in America).

---

My mother's "What I'm thankful for"* speech at Thanksgiving dinner:

"I'm thankful that our forefathers were brave and crazy enough to try moving to a new country...and unpleasant enough that no one really wanted them back."

* Of course, I meant "That for which I am thankful" speech.

Indeed it was. As was the Wright flyer rubbish compared with the designs of ten years later (Charles Rolls was killed when his Wright broke up in mid-air).

But Baird did transmit the very first TV pictures as did the Wrights make the first sustained powered flight. Thus both Baird and the Wrights can justly claim to be the inventors, respectively, of TV and powered flight.

Richard English

Until I discovered it on a cdrom of clip-art, I didn't even know it existed. I would imagine that most in the UK share my ignorance and certainly the day is never celebrated here. Who is, or was, Sadie Hawkins?

Incidentally, whereas it's not true that the British invented everything, we can claim a significantly higher number of inventions than the small size of our country would seem to warrant. The eccentric British inventor is a much-revered tradition here and we have a regular TV series devoted to new inventions, usually those of individuals (as opposed to corporations). Probably the man who presently waves most vigorously the flag for the cause of the great British eccentric inventor is Trevor Bayliss who, from his little house on Eel Pie Island, has produced a stream of inventions of which the clockwork radio is probably the most famous.

Incidentally, although we invented the geostationary space satellite (or its concept, anyway) and actually did build the first working computer, neither invention would have been very successful had each relied on mechanical switches and thermionic valves (vacuum tubes). Their success is due to the transistor and its derivative the integrated circuit. The transistor is a US invention.

Richard English

[This message was edited by Richard English on Sat Nov 29th, 2003 at 2:41.]

quote:

---

The transistor is a US invention.

---

I am so relieved to see that at least one invention came from the U.S.!

Here is a description of Sadie Hawkins Day. It really isn't very big at all; I doubt that my kids have even heard of it. However, when I was in 8th grade, I remember asking my favorite boy to a Sadie Hawkins Day Dance. It just felt so good to be asking the boy, rather than to wait to be asked.

We certainly have nothing like that in the UK. As one of the chronically unpursued (and unsuccessful), it would be nice to be the object of the ladies' attention for once!

Saidie Hawkins Day for England, I say. (Although we will probably need to call it Sadie Hawkins's Day to preserve our reputation for accurate apostrophe use)

Richard English

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard English:
As one of the chronically unpursued (and unsuccessful), it would be nice to be the object of the ladies' attention for once!

Richard English

---

As you regularly need to leave the chatroom when your wife has done dinner for you, you have clearly been either pursued or successful on at least one occasion.
That puts you ahead of me in the game by a score of one-nil.

Why should I let the toad work
Squat on my life ?
Can't I use my wit as a pitchfork
And drive the brute off ?
Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.

True. However when I was a perpetually randy teenager (or is that expression tautological?) I was never the one who was able to boast about his many conquests!

Of course, maybe I was the only one who was truthful!

Richard English

The apostrophe question was a good one, Richard. For the record, I went to Google about its use, and since they didn't use one, I didn't. However, perhaps I should have written "Sadie Hawkins [sic] day."

"Sadie Hawkins Day for England, I say. (Although we will probably need to call it Sadie Hawkins's Day to preserve our reputation for accurate apostrophe use)"...

Dunno about that. It needn't really belong to her, after all. One doesn't say Thanksgiving's Day, or Independence's Day, or Boxing's Day, or Coronation's Day, agreed?

Richard and Bob, I can commiserate as regards being chronically unpursued. I married the first female who ever looked my way, believing it to be the only way I'd EVER lose my virginity! After eighteen years of wedded sturm und drang she divorced me, and I assumed that I'd never get involved again. However, I met a woman who convinced me that it was all about attitude, not appearance. Say, anybody know if Emma Thompson is presently available? How could she possibly resist this skinny, bald, pot-bellied, impecunious, underendowed, ruptured, asthmatic word-play lover who's looking for a woman with cute puns?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard English:
Nov. 30: Although we will probably need to call it Sadie Hawkins's Day to preserve our reputation for accurate apostrophe use.

Nov. 27: We do, however, celebrate Guy Fawkes day.

---

Wouldn't that be Guy Fawkes's day?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kalleh:
I found that "gobbledygook" was coined by a Texas congressman, Maury Maverick, in 1944. He said the bird's "gobbledy gobbling" and "ludicrous pomposity" reminded him of his bureaucratic colleague's use of obscure language.

---

No doubt that's what he said to explain his coinage. It wouldn't do to state publically the more full explanation found in Etymology On Line:

quote:

---

gobbledygook - ... it also is said to be an alteration of earlier slang gobbledygoo, originally "a prostitute specializing in fellatio," lexicalization of gobble the goo "perform fellatio."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard English:
Sadie Hawkins Day for England, I say.

---

Actually, we weren't the first; your neighbors were.

In 1228 the Scottish Parliament enacted a law imposing a fine on any man who refuesd a leap year proposal unless he could show that he was already betrothed:

quote:

---

Ordonit that during ye reign of her maist blessed maiestie, Margaret, ilka maiden, ladee of baith high and lowe estait, shall hae libertie to speak ye man she likes. Gif he refuses to tak hir to bee his wyf, he shale be mulct in the sum of ane hundridty poundes, or less, as his estait may bee, except and alwais gif he can make it appeare that he is betrothit to anither woman, then he schal be free.

---

My source, John Ciardi, indicates that there was a similar law passed in France around 1300, and another in Florence, though only briefly, about 150 years later.

Except that they're not people.

In fact, the use or omission of the apostrophe in these sorts of terms seem very irregular. (there was a discussion about this recently when the topic was mothers/mother's/mothers' day)

Richard English

Sadie Hawkins in the extreme:

When I was a teen-age virgin (Hey! Sounds like a movie title!) there was a pack of extremely aggressive young women who became infamous in my hometown for pouncing upon unsuspecting males who happened to be walking alone in a particular section of town, dragging them under a nearby bridge, completely undressing and then gang raping them.

What their intentions were, no one was certain. Some theorized that they were attempting to make a political and/or feminist statement of some sort. Naturally, the area around this bridge quickly became a favorite hang-out for hopeful teenagers like myself.

And then some of the victims began to be stabbed in the process and I was forced to lose my virginity by more conventional methods. (To the best of my knowledge, they were never caught. Probably grandmothers today.)

quote:

---

Except that they're not people.

---

Richard, I realize that you said that in these sorts of situations the use of commas is irregular. However, what about Hic's comment about "Guy Fawkes day?"