Can anyone help me with the pronunciation of amyloidal? The dictionary guide gives only AM-uh-loid but I’m assuming am-uh-LOID-ul (as in ALK-uh-loid / alk-uh-LOID-ul). In the OEDILF workshop it’s been suggested I rewrite stressing the first syllable.
One thing that irritates me about some of the OEDILF folks is their insistence on "correct" stress. In truth, stress can vary according to word usage and placement and the "official" stress as indicated in a dictionary is often only a suggestion. The better dictionaries will show alternative stresses and pronunciations where these are used. For example:
CarriBEEan (UK); CarrIBean (US). MoustARSHe (UK); MUSTash (US).
Having said which, there are occasions when the demands of the limerick form necessitates unusual "stress-stretching" and, whereas some of us don't seem to bother too much, there are others who get extraordinarily cross about it all.
I won't get involved remembering the fracas over the pronunciation of "ceramist" just a few weeks ago.
And exactly how do the OEDLIF folks know the pronunciation? Is this a word they've heard in conversation?
Did they bother to check a dictionary? Webster's Revised (bottom cite at link) gives your pronunciation as the sole pronunciation. (With the " symbol indicating the primary accent, it says Amyloid \Am"y*loid\, Amyloidal \Am`y*loid"al\ ). OED agrees. Neither lists any first-syllable accent as a permissible alternative pronunciation.
Stick to your guns.
I'll drop in and add my support in the WS if you think it will help.
I have always viewed limericks like song lyrics. Sometimes you change the stress or even the pronunciation of an individual word to give the rhythm what it needs. It is all about sharing. I will tend to read a limerick with the correct meter and smoosh the words to fit.
"Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions.
CW that's an argument I've had more times than I care to count at the OEDILF. I say that for western readers, used to the limerick form, the knowledge of normal limerick stress will override occasionally misstressed words (although I don't agree with the use of "misstressed" here either)
Less flexible contributors insist (in to my mind a self-contradictory fashion) that
A) words must carry the stresses they carry in the dictionary. (Or at least that you must be able to show them a dictionary that has the stress pattern you have used.)
B) If written out and then read as prose the sentences should
Bi) have all the stresses in exactly the same place in the prose version as they did when it was a limerick
Bii) obey all the conventional rules of grammar and word order that prose would normally have.
Some of us can just let this stuff slide off our backs and take no particular notice. For others it is such a strong turn off that they won't contribute to the site or contribute far less than they otherwise might.
I'm all in favour of perfection. I just don't have the same concept of "perfection" that some others have.
Thanks for the replies, esp wordnerd for the dictionary reference. I didn't know to access those bottom links in OneLook. That’s just what I needed.
I’ve found that OEDILF is very strong on correct stress of THE WORD which I think is fair enough and people look for ways to rewrite other misstressed words, if they can, which is probably also fair enough. I think you can get away with smooshing though, if it’s funny or clever. (I'm still an enamoured newbie)
I'm surprised that you called the ceramics discussion a fracas, Richard. I really enjoyed reading all the comments. One good thing was it produced another ceramist limerick in US pronunciation which I dedicated to Kalleh since she was the one who sparked the whole thing off. Sometimes good things can come from dissension.
I was just about to say that, too, Stella (though I didn't realize I was the one who sparked it off). I felt the discussion was interesting and intellectual. In the end, I changed my mind about it, and I saw no one who insisted on one way of stressing the word.
I also have to disagree with Bob's comments. First of all, there is an agreement on OEDILF that the defined word be used with the correct stresses in the limerick, if at all possible. I see nothing wrong with that rule, and I agree with it. However, whether you agree with it or not, it is an agreed-upon rule over there. As to the other words in limericks, I'd have to disagree, at least in the workshops I've been in (and that includes plenty of yours, Bob), that people are not flexible. I have seen much flexibility over there, especially based on others' accents. Those who are inflexible just don't RFA, and there's nothing wrong with that. I am sure that you have issues in limericks that you hold more important than others. I don't recall yours, but I know that Richard's is whether the word is defined or not. While Richard might not RFA a limerick that he thinks doesn't define the word well, he may RFA another which some would consider meter-challenged. There is nothing at all wrong with that, and it allows for a great diversity in workshopping.
I found it enjoyable, too, but I got the feeling that some necks were getting hot under their collars!
In mine, Kalleh, yes. That's because I fight my corner. My workshop profile makes my view clear and workshoppers who disagree with me tend not to workshop my work. That's fine. I'd rather not have to discuss the same issue over and over. My point was that there are some workshoppers who will insist that every word in a limerick has whatever they perceive as the correct stress and ignore the fact (as mentioned by Richard) that in conversation word and sentence stress isn't fixed, it's fluid. I've seen people back down in other workshops when in my view they were right and the workshop was wrong, in circumstances when I'd just have said "Fine, don't RFA then."
This doesn't put me off at all but it does put some off. We both know various people who won't contribute over there because of it.
The other point was this insistence that the prose rules of grammar must also apply to poetry. I have a limerick there at the moment where it has been mentioned (and I have to say, just mentioned very politely in passing - I'm only illustrating a principle not criticising the workshopper)that my first two lines don't contain a verb. I haven't yet replied but my reply is likely to be that there is nothing wrong with that. It isn't meant to be sentence. It's a sentence fragment. Poets do it all the time.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that there is a huge problem. I'm just saying that SOME workshoppers get obsessed with fixing things that I don't consider broken.
A sentence without a verb? Why not? Very common and perfectly correct!
All part of the English language's rich pattern.
I enjoyed the fricassee, especially 'cause it was cripsy 'round the edges ... uh, oh, you said fracas. Nah, it was more like a sauté.
—Ceci n'est pas un seing.
I think it was only Richard who considered it a "fracas."
I understood your point, Bob. And my point was that I disagree with that. I haven't seen it in any of the workshops I've been in. In fact, sometimes I've seen the opposite where the author is just too recalcitrant to use the correct pronunciation when that writer wants to stress the defined word in a completely different way from any dictionary (and there aren't accent considerations).
I do agree with you, however, about your grammar point. I have argued the descriptivist case over there quite often. In fact, most recently poor Speedysnail thought I was accusing him for being a prescriptivist. Beyond the descriptive vs. prescriptive comments ("You must have a comma there or it's an egregious grammatical error!"), I also hate the feeling that you MUST have a complete sentence. I agree with you, Bob, that I just let those workshoppers leave and wait for someone else to step in.
In that case there are many popular limericks that won't work ;-).
Sometimes I wish we were all around a big round table talking, rather than posting. We'd understand each other better.
Richard, you know me better than that. I have RFA'd some of yours and Bob's (and others') with altered stresses. I was not saying that I disagree with limericks that don't have the correct stress. I was telling Bob that I haven't seen what he apparently has; that is, I haven't seen those who insist on "correct" stresses. Often those workshoppers will just quietly leave; Chris Doyle is one of them. However, what I have seen are writers (not you or Bob) who write a very minimal limerick, which is also extremely meter-challenged. If the limerick doesn't sparkle, why take the time to contort your mouth, smoosh the syllables, and misstress words terribly? Doesn't make sense.
Big difference, Richard.
I'm not intending to mention any names but there are still a few who insist on their iea of stresses. It is true that they tend not to workshop the writers with a more relaxed approach. There are however many who who will let the issue go but who have stated that they don't agree that "natural" limerick mertre will in most people pull more strongly than dictionary metre. Possibly I hang around the forums more than you which is where this sort of thing gets aired nowadays.
I haven't been on OEDILF for over a week and have devoted no significant amount of time to it since before Christmas--and probably since my old cat died in November. Just a combination of things: I was busy with work and volunteer stuff, and kind of distracted, and when I did come back, all the picky little fights about meter just seemed to me soooooo totally unimportant. I'm with Bob on this one. When we get back from New Zealand, I expect I'll have some time to start creating limericks and WSing them again, because that part is fun, but I just cannot get into going back and forth for weeksandweeksandweeks over some niggling little point of meter or rhyme, when the overall work is funny or nicely done, and holds together well and conveys a definition.
But for now all that is moot, because OEDILF has crashed:
I wish I knew what is was you disagreed with, then. Then I'd know whether or not to disagree ;-)
No "possiblys" about it. Anyone who posts on the OEDILF forum hangs around more than I do. I just don't have time anymore to post on that forum.
I don't consider this a "Bob is right" vs. "Kalleh is right" sort of discussion. It's just that Bob has noticed that some workshoppers "insist" on correct meter and won't let it go. I haven't noticed that. I've noticed the opposite where a workshopee (never a wordcrafter) won't listen that maybe he should change his limerick (which doesn't work) or it won't get RFAd. Instead, I've seen these people whine about the meter Nazis (or rhyme Nazis or definition Nazis or whatever). However, none of us has been in every workshop, and I am sure that both situations occur. I just haven't seen those who insist on the correct meter. My experience is that workshoppers will suggest a meter change and when the workshopee says he stresses the syllables differently, the workshopper will just move on.
Richard, my disagreement with Bob was that I hadn't seen people on OEDILF who are like a dog with a bone about correct meter. Yes, some won't RFA a limerick if the meter is incorrect, in their mind, but I haven't seen the insist part. I hope that is clear now. If not, it's hardly worth the trouble explaining it again. No big deal.
In my former life I used the word frequently. Your pronunciations are correct. At least in the US.