quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:
Calvert Watkins wrote a short book with that title that was also included as an appendix in the American-Heritage Dictionary.

Watkins has a good essay on the subject.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
And this is why I've decided to study linguistics.

Please, please be very careful Kalleh.
Having tried to follow assiduously these arguments, but with little success, I have an awful headache. I feel sure this reflects on my own incompetence and lack of native intelligence, but I wonder whether the writings of Shakespeare, Johnson, and Dickens were influenced by such studies.

Watkins has a good essay on the subject.

Professor Watkins held—he is now emeritus—two professorships at Harvard University: one in classics and the other in linguistics. The summer after graduating from university, I attended the LSA Linguistics Institute held at the Universität Salzburg, where I had the distinct pleasure of taking two classes from Watkins: Introduction to Hittite and Problems in Indo-European Linguistics. A little over a decade ago, I ordered my first batch of books from Amazon: Watkin's How to Kill a Dragon: Aspects of Indo-European Poetics and a comparative dictionary of Gothic.

Having tried to follow assiduously these arguments, but with little success, I have an awful headache. I feel sure this reflects on my own incompetence and lack of native intelligence, but I wonder whether the writings of Shakespeare, Johnson, and Dickens were influenced by such studies.

I know you're kidding, but the same could be said for almost any academic pursuit. I'm sure that anybody on this board could study linguistics successfully, if they just applied themselves. I don't see what the writings of any great author has to do with it, but I was never stopped from enjoying literature by my study of linguistics or computer science.

The European Union has several official languages. That makes a little more sense. But, it still doesn't explain why the US doesn't have an official language by legislature.

Greek, Italian, and German are official languages of the EU. Not Persian or Hindi. Apparently, there are Irano-Aryan loans in English and Irano-Aryan morphemes that have a resemblence to younger English words, words that are at the core of the English language.

Knowing one Indo-European language would give someone a good headstart, at least with vocabulary, in any of the other Indo-European languages, right?

The following is a rough list of the 1000 most common words in English and some of their Irano-Aryan Cognates

1000 Most Common English Words and Their Irano-Aryan Cognates

What right does any language coalition have to utilize an intangible assest like a language in business without including that language as an official one?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mojobadshah,

What right does any language coalition have to utilize an intangible assest like a language in business without including that language as an official one?

Are you saying because English has some Persian loanwords in it, that the EU should make Farsi an official language? You know Farsi has a bunch of Arabic loanwords in it (probably more than the number of Persian loanwords in English), but I don't think anybody would argue that Arabic should be an official language of Iran. I'm really not quite sure what it is you're trying to say.

As for your list of cognates, one could argue that Hittite has a similar list of cognate words in relationship to Farsi's top 1000 words. What does that mean? All the Indo-European languages have many words that are cogante with words in other Indo-European languages. That's how linguists in the 19th century noticed that Sanskrit, Avestan, Latin, and Greek were all related to one another.

I think that EU should make Persian an official language if its going to use Persian in business. To the best of my knowledge, Iran doesn't have intellectual property laws. So, nobody owns intellectual property. Intellectual property is open to all, I would presume. I know Dari Persian and Pushtun are official languages of Afghanistan.

I don't think Iranian's should be profiting off of and exploiting Arabic culture.

I would say, that Hittite does have cognates in English, but Gathic Avestan and Rig Vedic Sanskrit or Mycenean Greek sound like a better candidates to me for an oldest sister language because they are part of language families that are still living. The Anatolian (includes Hittite) language family died out 2100 years ago.

Are the words he, she, the, they, them, there, this, that, those cognates?

Are the words who, what, when, where, why, and, how cognates?

zmj says, "The official languages of the EU are: Bulgarian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, English, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Greek, Hungarian, Italian, Irish, Latvian, Lithuanian, Maltese, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Slovak, Slovene, Spanish, and Swedish."

That's 23 languages, but the EU's website lists only 20, omitting the 3 I've marked in red. That said, though, I belive zmj is right. Perhaps the EU website is out-of-date; perhaps the EU uses those three languages under some technical classification other than "official".

Romania and Bulgaria just got into the EU recently. A month or so ago?

I think that EU should make Persian an official language if its going to use Persian in business. To the best of my knowledge, Iran doesn't have intellectual property laws. So, nobody owns intellectual property. Intellectual property is open to all, I would presume. I know Dari Persian and Pushtun are official languages of Afghanistan.

Whether a language is declared by a country to be official or not has little to do with intellectual property law. Nobody owns English or Farsi. How is speaking or writing in English (or one of the other official languages of the EU) using Farsi? Farsi and English are not even mutually intelligible. If anything, all languages are in the public domain.

Whether a language is declared by a country to be official or not has little to do with intellectual property law.

That may be the case, but I belief that should be one of the purposes of an official language.

Nobody owns English or Farsi.

Yet, anyhow. When I read about how there is such a concept as intellectual property law, and when I read about people reserving the rights to the phrase "Hip Hop" or "your fired" (Donald Trump attempted to anyhow) it just makes me wonder what direction things are going in.


How is speaking or writing in English (or one of the other official languages of the EU) using Farsi?

For one, if English has loanwords from Farsi then English is borrowing from and Farsi. I understand that most linguists would probably say that Farsi is not going to get its loanwords back. But, maybe it should.

Farsi and English are not even mutually intelligible.

Yet, there is Farsi vocabulary that resembles English vocabulary.

If anything, all languages are in the public domain.

I agree, to an extent, because words and phrases can be trademarked and copyrighted.

It makes me wonder. Mallory says that there are more Iranian loans in the Indo-European language than any other language, and Indo-European is the most widely spoken family. Therefore, alot of business must be conducted using Iranian loans. So, it would seem, that, by saying something like "nobody owns language" works to the advantage of non-Irano-Aryan businessmen and to the disadvantage of Irano-Aryan businessmen (if they could take their loans back). Do you have any idea what I'm getting at?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mojobadshah,

quote:

Originally posted by mojobadshah:

The following is a rough list of the 1000 most common words in English and some of their Irano-Aryan Cognates

Where did you get this list?

If you are interested in Farsi loanwords in English, then here's a list.

quote:

Yet, there is good deal of Farsi vocabulary that resembles English vocabulary.

And a good deal of Hindi vocabulary that resembles English vocabulary. And a good deal of French vocabulary that resenbles English vocabulary. And so on for German, Greek, Latin, Swedish...

quote:

It makes me wonder. Mallory says that there are more Iranian loans in the Indo-European language than any other language, and Indo-European is the most widely spoken family.

I'm not sure what you mean. Could you please provide a quote?

As far as the list in question. I procured it myself using Irano-Aryan loan words and cognates. I've seen more extensive lists of Persian loans to English, but maybe they are not accurate.

English Words of Persian Origin

Persian Origins of Anglo-Saxon Words

I can't provide a quote because I don't have my books on me. But I'm a hundred percent sure that in The Search For the Indo-Europeans Mallory says that "the Indo-European family of languages are most loaded with Iranian loans".

The Indo-European family of languages is the biggest family of languages is it not?

quote:

Originally posted by mojobadshah:
Persian Origins of Anglo-Saxon Words

I'm very sceptical about this article. It seems to use mass comparison - listing a bunch of words from two languages that have similar sound and meaning. This method is not linguistically sound. The article presents no systematic rules for why or how these words are related, and so any claims it makes are not falsifiable. Language Log talks about it.

quote:

I can't provide a quote because I don't have my books on me. But I'm a hundred percent sure that in The Search For the Indo-Europeans Mallory says that "the Indo-European family of languages are most loaded with Iranian loans".

The Iranian languages are part of the Indo-European family, so I don't know what it means to say that Indo-European has Iranian loans.

You might be confusing loanwords and cognates. Cognates are words that are derived from a common ancestor. All Indo-European languages have cognates, because they are all derived from a common ancestor. Have a look at the AHD's list of IE roots, or the wikipedia list of IE roots. English father is similar to Persian pitā/pedar, not because the English word was borrowed from Persian, but because both words share the same ancestor.

A loanword is a word that is taken from one language into another with little or no translation. For instance, rook was borrowed into English from Persian.

Your list of English words and their Iranian cognates, if it is accurate, has nothing to do with words borrowed into English from Iranian.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: goofy,

quote:

A loanword is a word that is taken from one language into another with little or no translation. For instance, rook was borrowed into English from Persian.

That's the chess piece (otherwise known as the "castle") I believe. Strange that we generally call it a rook, but the move that involves swapping the king and the rook is known as "castling".

I have no evidence to support it but I suspect the English probably uses more loan words than any other language. I believe, too, that this is one of the reasons why English is now the world's most important and successful language.

goofy, I'm skeptical about the Persian Origins of Anglo-Saxon Words list, too. However, I know that the list I procured has loanwords and cognates. Mostly cognates. But, in intellectual property, one trademark can be confused with another, and one copyrighted idea can be unoriginal. Do you understand? As far as Mallory, I'm sure he was talking about Iranian loanwords (and not cognates) to other Indo-European languages, like Greek and Latin. zmježd has the book. According to Sims Williams Armenian is the biggest hunting ground for Iranian loans.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mojobadshah,

quote:

Originally posted by mojobadshah:
It makes me wonder. Mallory says that there are more Iranian loans in the Indo-European language than any other language, and Indo-European is the most widely spoken family. Therefore, alot of business must be conducted using Iranian loans. So, it would seem, that, by saying something like "nobody owns language" works to the advantage of non-Irano-Aryan businessmen and to the disadvantage of Irano-Aryan businessmen (if they could take their loans back). Do you have any idea what I'm getting at?

Assuming that Iranian gave loanwords to other IE language groups - well, this is a fact of language. It's normal. English has many words from Old French and Old Norse that have been completely nativized, like for instance "catch" and "they" respectively. Where do you draw the line?

Anyway, I don't see how "taking their loans back," is going to benefit the Iranian language-speaking businessman. How would it even work? Also, any concepts that English speakers are communicating with words borrowed from Iranian could just as easily be expressed with words of a different derivation. There's nothing special about Iranian words that means they can express comcepts that other languages can't. And Iranian language-speakers are not at a disadvantage just because English may have words of Iranian derivation. Farsi speakers can still express all the concepts they need to express, for instance.

I think it's normal for a language to be influenced by the languages it comes into contact with. A "pure" language would be very rare. It would have to be spoken by a community that has had no contact with any other language - and how would you ever determine that?

I don't see how "taking their loans back," is going to benefit the Iranian language-speaking businessman. How would it even work?

It would work like any other organization that protects intellectual property, like The American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers (ASCAP). Only instead of an idea police there would be a word police.

Also, any concepts that English speakers are communicating with words borrowed from Iranian could just as easily be expressed with words of a different derivation. There's nothing special about Iranian words that means they can express comcepts that other languages can't.

English has many synonyms, so basically it comes down to one's choice of words. I remember reading about how Mathew mentioned the Zoroastrian Magi or Wisemen to give his account of the nativity a sense of archaism. I figure the same idea of giving archaic value to something could be applied with words. I think if your going to exploit your own roots (in business) then go ahead, use synonyms, but don't exploit another culture's roots. Nobody is puting a knife to anybody's neck forcing them to use this or that language.

I think I may have remembered what Mallory said wrong. I'll have my books next week.

zmježd, pp.125f. "We must also take a brief glance at the most loaded of Indo-European words*mdash;Aryan."

What is the most loaded of Indo-European words?

What does "most loaded" mean? If the Indo-European languages are not most loaded with Iranian loans then what Indo-European language is? And, what I mean by that is what single Indo-European (eg. Iranian, Greek, Latin, German, etc....) language do all the other Indo-European languages (Iranian, Greek, Latin, German, etc....) borrow from the most?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mojobadshah,

mojobadshah, it's important not to conflate language and culture. I still don't see how a Farsi speaker is disadvantaged just because English has loanwords from Iranian languages. Does this mean that the French speaker is disadvantaged because English has so many words of French derivations? Or that I'm disadvantaged because Hindi speakers use a lot of English words?

zmježd, pp.125f. "We must also take a brief glance at the most loaded of Indo-European words*mdash;Aryan."

What is the most loaded of Indo-European words?

The sentence you've quoted is Mallory's, not mine. He says that Aryan is the most loaded of IE words.

What does "most loaded" mean? If the Indo-European languages are not most loaded with Iranian loans then what Indo-European language is? And, what I mean by that is what single Indo-European (eg. Iranian, Greek, Latin, German, etc....) language do all the other Indo-European languages (Iranian, Greek, Latin, German, etc....) borrow from the most?

By most loaded, he means a word with many meanings, some of them contradictory and many negative. For some it is an ethnic designation. This use of the word is the one that Mallory says best describes the Iranians, since the word, in Avestan, is an ethnic designation. In Sanskrit and in the Vedas, it's more of a linguistic designation. That is people who spoke an Aryan language. That is why the term Indo-Aryan is used of some languages in Indian, e.g., Sanskrit, Prakrits, Hindi, Urdu, Gujerati, etc., but not of other languages, e.g., Dravidian (Tamil, Kannada, Telegu, etc.). That's why your term Irano-Aryan doesn't make much sense to me. The only languages I know about in present-day Iran are IE ones, i.e., Iranian ones. Other people have other meanings for the term Aryan. I mentioned 19th century German linguists, who were also nationalists and racist, who used the term to distinguish "true" Indo-Europeans like the northern German and Nordic races from all other races. This meaning, which is one still used by white supremicist groups, is not scientific and not really something I want to discuss. You should be aware of this, because for many English speakers in the States, this is the primary meaning of the word Aryan. (It is important to remember that often when a language borrows a word from another language, its meaning changes.

Most-loaded does not mean that one IE language has more borrowings than another. While it might be interesting to count the number of Persian loanwords in English (as opposed to loanwords in English from French, Latin, etc. that are ultimately of Persian origin), I don't see how it ties in with IP laws. And it's not something I'm personally interested in doing.

This is obviously a subject that is very important to you, but I just don't understand how a language borrowing from another is bad. I think it's a good thing. And it's not something that can be legislated out of existence. There was a story in the news recently about the Iranian government trying to get rid of English loanwords from Farsi. The example they gave was pizza. Americans borrowed the word pizza from Italian which in turn borrowed it from the Neapolitan dialect, which in turn inherited it from Latin.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

quote:

This is obviously a subject that is very important to you, but I just don't understand how a language borrowing from another is bad. I think it's a good thing. And it's not something that can be legislated out of existence.

Those countries which try to get rid of "foreign" words (France is a good example) will always fail and generally impoverish their language.

I don't believe that French has been impoverished by the Academy's attempts to fix the language. They just have a larger vocabulary as a result: the words that have been approved and the words that people use. (Actually, it's even more than that, as the Belgians and the Quebeckers have alternate sets of official and unofficial words, too.

zmježd, don't get me wrong. I don't think borrowing words is a bad thing. I don't think