In Britain, is pudding synonymous with dessert, or does it refer to a particular subclass of desserts?

Both.

The general term "pudding" can refer to any desert although the usage is frowned upon by pedants. Most accurately puddings will be heavy dishes - not always sweet - that will adequately fill the working man's stomach.

Steak and kidney pudding (made with suet) is a wonderful dish. Christmas pudding is also a great treat of quite exceptional richness, traditionally served flambe after the Christmas lunch.

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The general term "pudding" can refer to any desert ...

Likewise, the general term "dessert" can refer to any dessert, such as "just desserts."

Ooops!! Begging your pardon; I meant just deserts

Curiously, stressed spelled backwards is desserts.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jerry thomas,

What's a treacle pudding?

Pudding is from the French word boudin 'sausage'; so it originally referred to a svaory dish and not a sweet one. I believe the British puddings are still cooked in a bag, but not an edible sausage casing.

Jerry, I found your post about "just deserts" fascinating because I had always thought it was "just desserts." Apparently I am in good company; even Snopes use to think that!

Whoops. My spelling of "desserts" had deserted me!

And yes, some traditional puddings are cooked in a muslin bag but more commonly these days in a bowl. Treacle pudding is a suet pudding flavoured with golden syrup (often referred to here as treacle, although properly treacle is molasses).

Steak and kidney pudding, with pease pudding, followed by spotted dick - a lovely and leaden lunch.

Does the word 'pudding' cause confusion to our American friends? We started off talking about desserts but of course steak and kidney pudding isn't, though it is one of my favourite meals. If you don't have it in America I certainly suggest you try it. Pease pudding is also not a dessert and I would be surprised if it was commonly known in America as many places I've been to in Britain are not familiar with it. Where I originally come from near Newcastle Upon Tyne it is a very common dish that is usually eaten with ham.

I've heard mention of Pease Porridge from the nursery rhyme:
Pease porridge hot
pease porridge cold
pease porridge in the pot
nine days old.

Some like it hot
some like it cold
some like it in the pot
nine days old.

But, like many other references in old nursery rhymes, none of us really knows what it is until we look it up.

Pudding to me, Doad, is sweet, as is pie. I remember when I was coming to England, Richard told me of a place to visit where I could get a pint and a pie, and I thought he was crazy!

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Richard told me of a place to visit where I could get a pint and a pie, and I thought he was crazy

And we never did try that, did we? Steak and Ale pie is a fine dish.

Peas pudding, by the way, is a northern dish, typically eaten with faggots. It's not actually a pudding at all, being made from dried peas, boiled to mushiness, and mashed into a kind of puree.

Is peas pudding the same as peas porridge? Sorry I misspelled peas(e).

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Is peas pudding the same as peas porridge? Sorry I misspelled peas(e).

Possibly. I have never heard of peas porridge.

Peas pudding is about the consistency of mashed potatoes, eatable with a fork; porridge in England tends to be more runny than that and needs a spoon.

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Sorry I misspelled peas(e).

Actually, it is more often spelt as "pease pudding".

from http://www.bobjude.co.uk/bobjude/recipes/pease.html

PEASE PUDDING
Two Optional Recipes
Recipe 1
Ingredients:
(or) Pack of bacon
Salt Pepper
475g (about a one pound pack) Split Peas
Method1)
Place Split Peas in large ovenproof dish. Cover with Water 475g of split peas to every 2 litres of water add salt and pepper to season. Allow to stand over night. Add small pieces of chopped bacon (not the fat or rind) into mixture. As to your own requirement, remembering this is a split pea rather than a meat recipe.

Place middle shelf of oven, Gas Mark 5 150C - cook until set. Until this reaches a nice medium consistency (not too thick ot thin as once cool it sets even thicker..

When cooled place in refrigerator. Chill and serve with, salad or - with cold ham sandwiches or even with Roast Potatoes and beef with Gravy.

Many grown up's today will remember waiting as children, for this being made, and then eating it hot, pasted onto fresh bread and butter.

PEASE PUDDING
Recipe Two

Ingredients:
Large Ham Shank
Salt Pepper
475g (about a one pound pack) Split Peas
Method2)

Place Large sized ham shank in large cooking pot cover with water. Bring to the boil, then drain the water. Replace with new clean water, and bring back to the boil.

Remove the ham shank, break off very small pieces of the meat into your stock. Enough to your own taste. Not a lot though as this is a split pea recipe rather than a meaty recipe.

Add the split peas (475g to every 2 litres of water) turn heat off and allow to steep for 4 hours. Next bring back to boil and then simmer, keep stirring and checking, as you only want the mix, to reach a nice medium consistency, (not too thick or thin) as once this cools it sets thicker.

When cooled place in refrigerator. Chill and serve with, salad or - with cold ham sandwiches or even with Roast Potatoes beef and Gravy. Has many other uses.

Many grown up's today will remember waiting as children, for this being made, and then eating it hot, pasted onto fresh bread and butter.

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Originally posted by Caterwauller:
I've heard mention of Pease Porridge from the nursery rhyme.

I would have to concur with Richard that I've never actually heard of 'Pease Porridge' and when I first read it I just assumed it was a mistake on your part (sorry). As far as I am concerned the nursery rhyme is:

Pease pudding hot
Pease pudding cold
Pease pudding in the pot
Nine days old

Pease Porridge???!!!!! You Americans really have destroyed your taste buds, that sounds disgusting! What would the Scottish Nationalists say?

There is nothing in the origins of the words pudding or porridge to suggest sweet or savory. Porridge (< pottage) was originally a vegetable soup. Pudding, as I said above, is something originally cooked in a bag or skin. I have had Cantonese jook 'rice congee' which is a rice porridge with bits or meat or fish or fried bread in it. I've also eaten haggis which is basically chopped organ meats mixed in with oatmeal as a filler and boiled in the animal's stomach as a container.

Food is a lot like language, constantly changing. It seems from Florio's description of trifle which I quoted above, that trifle was not so complicated a dish in the beginning, but changed over the period of 4 centuries to become quite a different dish than it was.

I realize that the British contingent is just funning us (something of which they are inordinately fond), and that they most likely will take me to task for not getting their humor, but ...

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I realize that the British contingent is just funning us (something of which they are inordinately fond), and that they most likely will take me to task for not getting their humor, but ...

Well I thought your response was funny so thank you very much. we'll make a Brit of you yet

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I've also eaten haggis which is basically chopped organ meats mixed in with oatmeal as a filler and boiled in the animal's stomach as a container.

You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

It wasn't bad, but I'm sure the single malt Scotch I had with it helped. Of course, it may sound gross, but it's no worse than what finds in the average hot dog.

Wer weiß, wie Gesetze und Würste zustande kommen, kann nachts nicht mehr ruhig schlafen. [Otto v. Bismarck]

(He, who knows how laws and sausages come to be made, can no longer sleep well at night.)

I have eaten haggis many times and it's a perfectly good food. The oatmeal makes it a bit dry but the Scots (and I) pour some whisky over it which helps.

I prefer faggots myself which are also made from offal but are more succulent.

Faggots are usually eaten with peas pudding but haggis is eaten with tatties and neeps (potatoes and turnip).

Incidentally, none of my postings in this thread have been anything but genuine; I have not tried to deceive or to poke fun. I have learnt long ago that it is difficult to use humour internationally - especially between the UK and the USA. The similarity of our two langauges lulls us into a sense of, quite false, security.

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I have learnt long ago that it is difficult to use humour internationally - especially between the UK and the USA. The similarity of our two langauges lulls us into a sense of, quite false, security.

So I have found out Richard and no doubt I will continue to puzzle and even upset people as I exercise my rather odd British sense of humour. Perhaps I should apologise in advance for this.

I first saw haggis cooked when I worked as a chef for a while (one of numerous jobs I've had) and it was one of the most disgusting sights and smells I've ever come across. I won't go into details here but it put me off haggis for years until I actually moved to Scotland and tried it at last. In fact it was very tasty, a bit like spicy sausage meat in many ways. Much of the Scottish cuisine I found really awful but perhaps more of that another time

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Doad,

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Pease Porridge???!!!!! You Americans really have destroyed your taste buds,

Oh drat, now I'm really discouraged. I thought that at the very least the nursery rhymes I knew to come from England were still as you would say them!

I wonder when it changed over? The problem for me is that I've been working with and kind of studying nursery rhymes for almost 2 decades now, and with this discrepancy I find my own knowledge base called into question! Yipes! I suppose for many folks this is not a big deal, but I like to think I have known what I was doing all this time! Now I wonder how many other nursery rhymes have been changed on us without our knowledge. I'm being overly dramatic just for effect (not a surprise to you all, I'm sure), but I'm seriously asking the question. Maybe I should ask about all my favorite rhymes and you all can tell me what has been Americanized.

I read a book some years ago which gave an interpretation of most of the old British nursery rhymes. It was interesting how many of them (if the author is to be believed) originally had a far from innocent origin

I just heard about this one:

Little Jack Horner,
Sat in a corner;
Eating a Christmas pie,
He stuck in his thumb,
And pulled out a plum,
And said, "What a good boy am !"

This refers to a historical fact. Jack Horner was a messenger entrusted to deliver a bundle of deeds to church property that Henry VIII had seized. Such a collection of items was called a 'pie'. He stole one of them, and did not get caught. The property is still in the possession of his descendants.

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Originally posted by Richard English:far from innocent origin

I seem to remember this book being mentioned on the radio. Wasn't the author trying to suggest that almost every nursery rhyme had a sexual origin? It wouldn't surprise me because when I did my Degree it seemed that everything connected with English literature was about sex. What a great subject!

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Wasn't the author trying to suggest that almost every nursery rhyme had a sexual origin?

Indeed. That was exactly the case. I think that our pre-Victorian ancestors (most of them, anyway) had a far more liberal attitude towards sex which, after all, is just one of many human pleasures.

Sex, like eating, is fun to do simply because if it weren't then it just wouldn't get done. Just why sex has become a taboo subject whereas eating has not is a puzzle to me. It's not the case amongst other primates where sex, like food, is enjoyed quite publicly and without apparent shame.

You do need to be careful though. Not all the supposed origins of these tales are true. In the section of their site that cautions you against trusting to authority SNOPES has this.
To forestall another row like the infamous "Mr Ed" affair here's a warning.

***** WARNING *****
Although the snopes web site is ALMOST entirely factual the section the above link points to is a spoof !
It is the section that is included as a caution against believing everything that you read.

It says TRUE at the top of the page . It means FALSE. It isn't true. They made it up to illustrate a point.

******************************

Whew! I hope that's clear enough.

It's not the case amongst other primates where sex, like food, is enjoyed quite publicly and without apparent shame.

It's all just a matter of how natural drives get socialized. Luis Buñuel has a justly famous scene in his film, Le Fantôme de la liberté, where people go to a dinner party where they sit on toilets arranged around a table and carry on with small talk. Suddenly one young girl announces to her mother that she needs to eat something. Her mom shushses her, and the guests laugh. Turns out there's a small room at the end of the hall, where you sit and eat. While inside, somebody is quite embarassed when somebody knocks on the door while he's eating. The story is told as a kind of flashback by an anthropologist teaching to a classroom full of gendarmes.