While I do like Keillor, I'm not prepared to dote on his every word. "Golden?" Oh, an idolator, huh? Stone her!!!

Old Testiment Asa

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While I do like Keillor, I'm not prepared to dote on his every word. "Golden?" Oh, an idolator, huh? Stone her!!! Wink

Stoner? hardly!

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Stoner? hardly!

Oh, WM, you rock!

You can stone me, too, because I love Garrison as well. His columns make me laugh. He really seems to get what life is all about.

Of course, I like to start sentences with conjunctions, too, so we have a lot in common, I guess.

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There, I always enjoy ordering an Old Speckled Hen!

Yes, Hen is one of the many wonderful beers that hail from the UK.

Incidentally, very few people know where the name came from and assume it's something to do with poultry. But the name actually derives from that given to an MG racing car of the 1920s and was borrowed by the brewers.

And why should they do that? Because OSH was created by Morlands of Abingdon, the town where MG motor cars were orginally made. Sadly neither MG nor Morlands now exist except as brand names - but OSH is still a good beer - though far better when cask-conditioned than when in bottle.

If the pub you use serves cask-conditioned beer by handpump, then you will see that the pump clip is octagonal - the same shape as the MG badge.

If you come to the Wordcraft Convention next October you'll be able to sample some real English beer in some real English pubs.

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If you come to the Wordcraft Convention next October you'll be able to sample some real English beer in some real English pubs.

One of these years, yes, but this year we are saving for a trip to see my sister in New Zealand. I am sure I could talk my husband into a Wordcraft pub crawl (or is that a pub stroll), especially if we were going to head for Scotland before or after (seems he's a descendant of some guy named "Cluny" who hid in a cave above Newtonmore for nine years.)

Interesting history of the Old Speckled Hen--Next time we're at Man o' Kent, I'll check out the pump clips, but I'm pretty sure it's just bottled.

WM

Some trivia: A Man of Kent comes from the area to the east of the River Medway and a Kentish Man comes from the west of the river. Pubs on either side of the divide have often adopted appropriate names.

I am a proud Kentish Man. When I was born my area was a part of Kent, but later became swallowed up in Greater London. I still follow Kent Cricket Club's results, although I have no great interest in cricket in general.

See http://www.digiserve.com/peter/manofkent.htm

Well, I was born in Maidstone, so I guess I'm a Man of Kent.

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One of these years, yes, but this year we are saving for a trip to see my sister in New Zealand.

And, of course, London is a very logical stopover point en-route for New Zealand...

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And, of course, London is a very logical stopover point en-route for New Zealand...

Everything depends on price! And timing (our trip will be next March.) Do you have the Wordcrafter Convention every year?

Don't we wish! This is our first, and it has been hard to plan. We're just separated by too many miles.

Even if we don't manage an official gathering there's no reason why we can't meet. I have already met Kalleh and her husband, Arnie, Bob Hale, Cat, Chaswyke and his son, Stevah and maybe some others whom I've forgotten.

You met our son and daugher, as well as studentofbeer from realbeer.com when you were in Chicago. You almost met CJ who finked out on us at the last minute. And what about those 4 beautiful 20-something blondes at Goose Island whom you convinced to drink cask-conditioned beer?

Indeed. I remember all of those (especially the young ladies who "just loved my accent"). But I was speaking primarily of those who post here.

Sorry if I didn't make this clear.

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But I was speaking primarily of those who post here.

Hmmm, I don't think SteveH and Chas's son post here. I thought you meant people that you'd met here. Of course I was kidding about the 20-something gorgeous blondes.

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Of course I was kidding about the 20-something gorgeous blondes. Wink

You didn't happen to get their email addresses did you?

No, but we have your pictures with them.

Best not post them; my blood pressure is a little raised already ;-)

I know I'm coming to this late...

In Naomi Baron's Alphabet to Email she has an interesting discussion on punctuation. She says there are two traditions of punctuation in English: rhetorical, for aiding readers in reading the text aloud and also to help clarify meaning. And grammatical, for marking grammatical units only.

She suggests that whether you lean toward one tradition or the other depends on whether you think texts are meant to be read aloud, or meant to be read silently. Also, advocates of grammatical punctation believe that "the correct interpretation of meaning can only be derived by marking grammatical structure."

Punctuation in the 18th and 19th centuries was mostly of the grammatical tradition, but rhetorical punctuation was still used. Nowadays it is becoming more rhetorical.

for instance

The shadowy figure who lurked outside my office for weeks on end, turned out to be a private detective.

The comma is an example of rhetorical punctuation. It marks the end of a breath group. It is wrong according to the traditional rules of punctuation, which are mostly grammatical. But I have noticed a lot of rhetorical punctuation like this online - and so has Baron, which is why she wrote this book.

A fine post, Goofy! Thanks for joining us!

Very interesting, Gooofy. I must be more traditional then because that comma seems needless to me. I thought the vogue for commas was minimalism, which is not supported by that comma.

I find the sentence easier to parse with the sentence, although when spoken, there is no pause there. For this reason, I find it acceptable.

Edit: Should read, "I find the sentence easier to parse with the comma".

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Seanahan,

A pause is not necessary at that point, but it is a natural place to pause.

Frustratingly, Baron doesn't explain what she means by "breath group". But I'm sure I'll be reading more about this.

Kalleh, you may be right about the vogue for minimalism. Baron talks a lot about that as well. But I have seen the rhetorical comma a lot too. Perhaps I notice it more because I'm not used to it.

Sorry Gooofy, but I can't really find a way to read that sentence with a pause.

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Sorry Gooofy, but I can't really find a way to read that sentence with a pause.

Well, I would expect a pause since I read the phrase "...who lurked outside my office for weeks on end..." as parenthetic.

However, to make that clear, the comma should be doubled and the phrase would then read, "The shadowy figure, who lurked outside my office for weeks on end, turned out to be a private detective."

The initial comma then flags the parenthetic phrase and the second one, as the reader would expect, closes it.

Without the first comma the second comes as a slight surprise and the sentence might need re-reading before its sense is grasped.

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Originally posted by Richard English:

Without the first comma the second comes as a slight surprise and the sentence might need re-reading before its sense is grasped.

If you're not used to rhetorical punctuation.

I need to find out what a "breath group" is...

Sean, if you wouldn't normally pause there (as I wouldn't either), why then do you find the comma "acceptable?"

Gooofy, I just assumed a "breath group" was when you had to take a breath after reading some words. However, I could be wrong.

I find it difficult to parse this sentence, due to its length and lack of other punctuation. Perhaps it is the way I read. I tend to gather up the whole sentence all at once. The comma tells me where the WH-clause (who turned out to be a private detective) ends, and where the predicate of the subject (the figure) begins.

Fundamentally, the sentence is "The shadowy figure turned out to be a private detective.", with a parenthetical remark "who lurked outside my office for weeks on end". I suppose Richard is right that there should be an initial common after "figure", but typically it isn't necessary.

You might be right, Kalleh, but what are the rules for when breath groups occur? How does Baron know this is the end of a breath group? This is the sort of thing I think about.

Here are more examples, probably more acceptable examples, of rhetorical punctuation.

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I find it difficult to parse this sentence, due to its length and lack of other punctuation.

Which is why the initial comma is so useful - it tells you that the next word group is in some way different from the preceding one, and your brain is then ready for the change.

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How does Baron know this is the end of a breath group? This is the sort of thing I think about.

I agree, Goofy. I wondered about that, too. I can't even imagine that one could systematize when people breathe. It was just how I took it. At any rate, I thought the comma unnecessary, and I didn't take a breath at that point anyway.