Wordcraft Community Home Page
Was Swift Irish or English?
February 02, 2006, 21:04
KallehWas Swift Irish or English?
One of the cultural reporters is taking a course on Jonathan Swift. Apparently in her introductory column about the course, she described Swift as an "18th Century British author." A Dr. James Murphy, an Irish-born English Professor, took issue with that statement.
The columnist genuinely asks her readers, how should she refer to Swift? He was born and educated in Ireland, but, she says, he is routinely included in anthologies of British literature. Apparently his biographer said that he was "poised between Ireland and England." He didn't much like Ireland. In 1709 Swift wrote: "I reckon no man is thoroughly miserable unless he be condemned to live in Ireland." He later called the island "a wretched, dirty doghole and prison." In the columnist's dictionary, Swift is referred to as an "English satirist, born in Ireland." She says on the Web she finds both British and Irish, though British is more prevalent.
Thoughts? I will email the columnist if anyone has a definitive answer. Thanks!
February 03, 2006, 02:02
Richard EnglishIreland was a British possession at that time. It was never part of England, though.
So British is correct, Irish is correct, but English (or Scottish or Welsh) would not be correct - except insofar as Swift did live in England for a fair time.
If Swift is English then Bob Hope and Charlie Chaplin are American ;-)
Richard English
February 03, 2006, 05:47
zmježdSwift's mother was English. Was Kipling an Indian writer, British, or English? Wilde? Irish, Anglo-Irish, British? ...
—Ceci n'est pas un seing.
February 03, 2006, 06:08
SeanahanI think we can all agree on James Joyce.
February 03, 2006, 11:10
arnieAs Bob and others have said, he's Irish or British. I suppose he could conceivably be called an English satirist as he wrote in English, not Polish or French.
See his
A Modest Proposal
For Preventing The Children of Poor People in Ireland
From Being A burden to Their Parents or Country, and
For Making Them Beneficial to The PublicLink
here.
Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
February 07, 2006, 19:33
Kallehquote:
As Bob and others have said, he's Irish or British.
Arnie, time for a little holiday.
Bob Hope
was only 4 when he moved to Ohio from England. With that thinking, my father-in-law would be Russian and my grandmother would be Scottish. They were both about 3 when they moved here. I suppose where people are from, in cases like these, is a matter of perspective.
February 07, 2006, 21:12
zmježdquote:
James Joyce
He did live more of his life outside of Ireland, than inside it.
—Ceci n'est pas un seing.
February 08, 2006, 05:52
Seanahanquote:
He did live more of his life outside of Ireland, than inside it.
Do you honestly believe this argument, or are you playing the Devil's advocate?
February 08, 2006, 06:36
zmježdquote:
the Devil's advocate
Actually, Joyce was a British citizen. But, no, you're right. Joyce was Irish. But, just being born somewhere doesn't automatically imply citizenship. Germany for example.
—Ceci n'est pas un seing.
February 08, 2006, 07:59
arniequote:
Arnie, time for a little holiday.
Why?
He was born in Ireland so he was Irish; Ireland was part of the UK at that time so he was also British. I am English as I was born in England and British as I am a UK citizen.
What's Bob Hope got to do with anything?
Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
February 13, 2006, 19:25
Kallehquote:
Why?
Oh, Arnie, I was just having fun with you. In another thread you had mixed up the 2 men who invented the remote, and then here you said "As Bob and others have said" when in fact Bob hadn't posted here. Just a little teasing, that's all.
quote:
What's Bob Hope got to do with anything?
Not sure. Richard brought him up.