I recently saw the Prime Minister of New Zealand called "The Right Honorable." In looking it up in Wikipedia and other sources on the Web, it is defined as "an honorific prefix that is traditionally applied to certain people in the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, other Commonwealth Realms, and elsewhere. The title is also applied to the President of the Council of State of the Republic of Turkey."
I haven't seen it used in the U.S., though I did find something on the Web about the Right Honorable Samuel Alito, Jr. (a U.S. Supreme Court Justice). I believe it was a spoof, though.
Is "The Right Honorable" used in the U.S.? Is "Honorable" always preceded by "The Right" in the UK, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia? Or is there a difference between "Honorable" and "Right Honorable?"
March 12, 2007, 07:22
arnie
I can't answer the first part, but
quote:
Is "Honorable" always preceded by "The Right" in the UK, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia? Or is there a difference between "Honorable" and "Right Honorable?"
Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
March 12, 2007, 19:54
Kalleh
Yes, I recall that conversation, though we didn't address "Right Honorable" there. I don't think we use that phrase in the U.S.This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,
March 13, 2007, 08:10
zmježd
I think of Right honourable and Right Reverend as British styles of address, though the latter may be used in the States with some ecclesiastical titles.
The Wikipedia article points out that there is Honourable, Right Honorable, and Most Honourable.
—Ceci n'est pas un seing.
March 13, 2007, 10:52
<wordnerd>
As zmj points out, there is Most Honourable as well as Right Honourable, and also Right Reverend. To my surprise, you can also speak of Most Reverend.
What does right mean in this context? "Higher"? Is there any other context in which right is so used?
March 13, 2007, 19:14
tinman
Right, in this sense, is an adverb which means "With intensive force: Very," according to The OED Online, and can be used with either an adjective (chiefly U.S., recorded c 1200) or an adverb, (c 1200) or "In titles or forms of address. (See also HONOURABLE, REVEREND, WORSHIPFUL)" (c 1390). OneLook has it in 52 dictionaries.
TinmanThis message has been edited. Last edited by: tinman,
March 13, 2007, 19:34
<Asa Lovejoy>
Does the term, rector suggest the possessor of the title is "right" honorable?
March 13, 2007, 21:08
shufitz
tinman says: "Right, in this sense, is an adverb which means "With intensive force: Very," according to The OED Online, and can be used with an adjective (chiefly U.S., recorded c 1200)"
I've heard such expressions as "well, that's right kind of you," as hillbilly dialect. So that dialect preserves an old form, otherwise extinct (except in titles)? Wow!
March 13, 2007, 22:52
Richard English
"He's got himself into a right mess" is common slang in the UK. Right means "considerable" in this sense and the phrase itself means "He's now in a situation of considerable difficulty"
Richard English
March 14, 2007, 07:08
saranita
How about "right here"?
Or in hillbilly vernacular, "rat cheer."
March 15, 2007, 17:42
tinman
quote:
Originally posted by shufitz: I've heard such expressions as "well, that's right kind of you," as hillbilly dialect. So that dialect preserves an old form, otherwise extinct (except in titles)? Wow!
That sense seems to be used most in Southern dialects, but we still use it. The AHD lists 11 meanings of the adverb right:
1. Toward or on the right.
2. In a straight line; directly: went right to school.
3. In the proper or desired manner; well: The jacket doesn't fit right.
4. Exactly; just: The accident happened right over there.
5. Immediately: called me right after dinner.
6. Completely; quite: The icy wind blew right through me.
7. According to law, morality, or justice.
8. Accurately; correctly: answered the question right.
9. Chiefly Southern U.S. Considerably; very: They have a right nice place.
10. Used as an intensive: kept right on going.
11. Used in titles: The Right Reverend Jane Smith.
Numbers 9 and 11 are the ones we've been discussing. But notice that 10 is also listed as an intensive. That's a very common form and isn't restricted to the South. It seems to me that 6 could also be considered an intensive.
Notice that the inflected forms for the adjective are righter and rightest. I guess that's correct, but, as the hillbilly would say, "That just don't sound right to me."
From that same source:
OUR LIVING LANGUAGE:
Speakers of Standard English mainly restrict the use of adverbial right to modify adverbs of space or time, as in She's right over there or Do it right now! No such restriction applies in Southern vernacular speech, where right can be used to intensify the meaning of many adjectives and adverbs, as in He's right nice or You talk right fast. This broader use of right is attested as far back as the 15th century and is found in the works of Shakespeare and other great writers. Thus, what appears to be neglect of Standard English rules is actually the retention of a once-proper historical usage.
•The use of right as an adverb indicating directness, completeness, or general intensity seems to be related to the use of right in a more concrete sense to refer to something that is perfectly straight or perpendicular to something else, as in right angle. A similar connection between concrete and metaphorical meaning lies behind the Southern adverbial usage of plumb, as in He fell plumb asleep as an indicator of completeness or totality. See Note at smart.
Smart is a word that has diverged considerably from its original meaning of “stinging, sharp,” as in a smart blow. The standard meaning of “clever, intelligent,” probably picks up on the original semantic element of vigor or quick movement. Smart has taken on other senses as a regionalism. In New England and in the South smart can mean “accomplished, talented.” The phrase right smart can even be used as a noun meaning “a considerable number or amount”: “We have read right smart of that book” (Catherine C. Hopley).
TinmanThis message has been edited. Last edited by: tinman,
March 15, 2007, 17:57
tinman
quote:
Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy: Does the term, rector suggest the possessor of the title is "right" honorable?
As they say in the South, "That boy ain't right."
Tinman
March 15, 2007, 21:54
Kalleh
I wonder if "Right Reverand" is regional in the U.S.; it sounds southern to me, but I don't know. I surely have never heard it.
That's interesting about "smart." I didn't know the original meaning had been "stinging" or "sharp."
March 16, 2007, 07:33
arnie
quote:
I didn't know the original meaning had been "stinging" or "sharp."
We'd quite likely exclaim if we grazed a knee, suffered a paper cut or similar, "Ouch! That smarts!"
Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
March 16, 2007, 07:54
zmježd
I didn't know the original meaning had been "stinging" or "sharp."
You still find this primary meaning in the German loanword: Weltschmerz 'world-weariness, i.e., lit. world-pain'.
—Ceci n'est pas un seing.
March 16, 2007, 15:02
Quentin Letts
In Britain "Right Hon" indicates that someone is a member of the Privy Council (a smallish group, composed mainly of senior politicians, who officially are there to advise the Monarch on public affairs although in recent times it has often become not much more than of a badge of success). Cabinet ministers become "Rt Hon". A few elderly or distinguished backbenchers become Rt Hon as a sort of late-career upgrade. Other elected Members of Parliament are called "the Hon" (even though they often far from "hon"!).
Quentin Letts.
March 16, 2007, 22:53
Kalleh
What is a "backbencher?"
Arnie, we'd use "smart" that way, too. However, the more common definition of it is "intelligent" or "clever."
March 17, 2007, 07:20
zmježd
The Privy Council has nothing to do with the jakes, or as we Yanks say, privies or outhouses. It is similar to our presidential cabinet, though it labels its members secretaries rather than ministers.
—Ceci n'est pas un seing.
March 18, 2007, 08:48
Quentin Letts
A backbencher is a member of Parliament who is not a minister (ministers are "frontbenchers" because they sit on the Government bench in the House of Commons or Lords and that bench, being next to the despatch box, is at the front).
NB to Zmjezd, not all members of the Privy Council are ministers. Nor are they all British.
March 18, 2007, 09:06
zmježd
not all members of the Privy Council are ministers.
Thanks for the correction, Mr Letts. Reading up on the Privy Council, as I should have done before posting, I find that the heir-apparent, the Archbishops of Canterbury and York and the Bishop of London, and some judges are also privy councillors. And may I extend a warm welcome to the board to you?
—Ceci n'est pas un seing.
March 18, 2007, 12:38
Quentin Letts
Thank you!
May 03, 2007, 10:15
oneils
I found this site that explains how to address Canadian members of parliament in formal correspondence.
Originally posted by Kalleh: I wonder if "Right Reverand" is regional in the U.S.; it sounds southern to me, but I don't know. I surely have never heard it.
That's interesting about "smart." I didn't know the original meaning had been "stinging" or "sharp."
Somehow I missed this entire conversation until today: it took place while I was in New Zealand, reading about the Rt. Hon. Miss Helen Clark every day in the papers.
I believe that both the Episcopal and the Catholic churches in the U.S. address their bishops and archbishops as Right Reverends, Most Reverends, and I have even seen, years ago, in news articles I was editing on the copy desk of the Binghamton Press, "the Very Most Right Reverend" applied to some visiting Monseigneur or something, who was officiating over a Catholic wedding or funeral. So these terms are not regional.
When our son Jim was 2 years old, and beginning to talk, he could be quite comical trying to give orders to us or his older brother. In those days, we used to refer to him as "The Very Most Right Reverend, Brigadier General James Parker Widman." Of course, this title is not in widespread use elsewhere in the world, or even our neighborhood...And Jim grew up to be a computer programmer, and quite soft-spoken as well, so there is no need to call him such things now!
As for "smart," I've heard that term since I was a kid in Ohio. You fall off your bike and skin your knee and yell, "Ouch, that smarts!"
WM
May 04, 2007, 09:32
wordmatic
quote:
Originally posted by wordmatic:
quote:
Originally posted by Kalleh: I wonder if "Right Reverand" is regional in the U.S.; it sounds southern to me, but I don't know. I surely have never heard it.
That's interesting about "smart." I didn't know the original meaning had been "stinging" or "sharp."
Somehow I missed this entire conversation until today: it took place while I was in New Zealand, reading about the Rt. Hon. Miss Helen Clark every day in the papers.
I believe that both the Episcopal and the Catholic churches in the U.S. address their bishops and archbishops as Right Reverends, Most Reverends, and I have even seen, years ago, in news articles I was editing on the copy desk of the Binghamton Press, "the Very Most Right Reverend" applied to some visiting Monseigneur or something, who was officiating over a Catholic wedding or funeral. So these terms are not regional.
When our son Jim was 2 years old, and beginning to talk, he could be quite comical trying to give orders to us or his older brother. In those days, we used to refer to him as "The Very Most Right Reverend, Brigadier General James P_____ W______." Of course, this title is not in widespread use elsewhere in the world, or even our neighborhood...And Jim grew up to be a computer programmer, and quite soft-spoken as well, so there is no need to call him such things now!
As for "smart," I've heard that term since I was a kid in Ohio. You fall off your bike and skin your knee and yell, "Ouch, that smarts!"
