These are the rules I was taught for inflexions of words ending in -nge:

- Keep the "e" before a consonant (e.g. infringement)
- Drop the "e" before a suffix beginning with "e", "i" or "y" (e.g. plunged, changing, spongy), unless there's a possibility of confusion with another word (e.g. singeing, swingeing)
- Keep the "e" before a suffix beginning with "a", "o" or "u", in order to keep the "g" soft (e.g. changeable)

However, I've recently noticed a number of common spellings that don't conform to the rule, especially "whingeing". By the above rules this ought to be "whinging", since the suffix begins with "i" and there's no verb "whing" that would cause confusion.

I checked the new (Burchfield) edition of Fowler on this and he recommends forms like "whingeing" and "tingeing" in order to avoid the suggestion of a rhyme with "ringing". However, he's inconsistent; he also recommends "cringing" and "infringing". What's your view?

Since "whing(e)ing" isn't commonly used here in the USA, the issue is likely a UK one. We more commonly use "whining," "complaining," "kvetching,"
"bitching," or some such term.

I've not heard of "whingeing." Indeed, with that new email function on WC, I thought this word was part of an update.

I suspect that whing(e)ing may be a peculiarly British habit! It's defined as "complaining persistently and in a peevish or irritating way". The Australians in particular are fond of describing the British as "whinging Poms" - I couldn't possibly comment, of course

The issue still arises with other verbs, though: "hing(e)ing", "ting(e)ing", "imping(e)ing" and so on. I personally wouldn't include an "e" in any of those forms, though Burchfield recommends it. He also recommends "spongeing" but "spongy", which makes no sense to me.

"Lunge" is the strangest one. There are two verbs with this spelling: the common one meaning "to suddenly move forward", and a specialized one meaning "to train a horse with a long rope called a lunge". He recommends "lunging" for the first and "lungeing" for the second. This suggests that the familiarity of the word may make as much difference as anything.

Yes, I think of whinge as a British English expression. The -ing forms with the -e- in them just look wrong somehow, and trying to get spelling rules to follow logic is asking too much. (Perhaps if we had a logical instead of an ad hoc spelling system to begin with. I always thought the spelling judgment was British, but maybe I'm wrong. In the end, I think it's just the UK style being supplanted by the US one. Unless one's style guide mentioned which form to use, I would ask that people use the forms consistently. If they switch back and forth, within the same text, then it tends to look sloppy.

I had an idea that "whingeing" was originally an Australian expression, taken up by us back home. I could be wrong, though.

As many will know, I work for Ofsted, who inspect schools and other provision for young people in England. Our house style is to refer to the rankings on particular areas given by inspectors as judgements. At first (before I added the alternative spelling) Word's spullchucker kept saying it was wrong, and that judgment was the correct spelling (which accorded with my own views).

I queried this one day, and was told that judgment refers to a decision by a court, whereas a judgement is made in other cases. I've taken that explanation with a pinch of salt, though.

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:
I always thought the spelling judgment was British, but maybe I'm wrong.

I always thought it was American! I certainly retain the "e" myself, as is the rule with suffixes beginning with a consonant (also with "acknowledgement", "abridgement" etc.) The situation is complicated, according to Wikipedia:

"Judgment is the preferred spelling in a legal context throughout the common law world. The spelling judgment is also found in the Authorized Version of the Bible.

"In a non-legal context, however, the situation differs between countries. The spelling judgement (with e added) is common in the United Kingdom in a non-legal context, possibly because writing dg without a following e for the /dʒ/ was seen as an incorrect spelling. The spelling judgment without the e is however often listed first and in any case without comment or regional restriction in major UK dictionaries. In British English, the spelling judgment is correct when referring to a court's or judge's formal ruling, whereas the spelling judgement is used for other meanings. In American English, judgment prevails in all contexts."

quote:

Originally posted by Guy Barry:
[QUOTE]
I certainly retain the "e" myself, as is the rule with suffixes beginning with a consonant...

Doing otherwise seems to suggest a distinct pronouncing of the consonant, thereby making the word less fluid, IMHO. Indeed, I assume that "consonant" means, "sounded with." (con + sonant)

Doing otherwise seems to suggest a distinct pronouncing of the consonant, thereby making the word less fluid, IMHO.

I'm not quite sure what this means. The e is not pronounced.

I've always thought it should be judgement.

The WWFTD's recent word was relevant to this thread: Swingeing
[fr. swinge, to flog]
Brit : very large: whopping

"This was more than a kerfuffle... The authority of
the Lieutenant was upheld by a swingeing fine,
which at this distance in time seems to be barely
warranted by the evidence produced."
- Michael Braddick, God's Fury, England's Fire
[2008]

Hadn't come across that site before. What's "worthless" about the word "swingeing"? It's fairly common in British usage, though, as this article points out, it mainly tends to be used to describe financial cuts of some sort. As I noted in my initial post, the "e" needs to be retained in this case to distinguish it from "swinging" (present participle of "swing").

I actually saw the word "whingeing" used on a poster here in my neighborhood at work. It was very interesting to see, and I actually looked it up to see if it meant the same thing as whining. I don't recall ever seeing it used in the US before.

I've also never heard the word swingeing. Is it pronounced like hinge? For that matter, is whinge?

I have no idea, either, CW. Good to see you here again!

quote:

Originally posted by Caterwauller:
I've also never heard the word swingeing. Is it pronounced like hinge? For that matter, is whinge?

Yes, the "g" is soft in all of them.

Funny, because I was reading them with a hard "g."

But the whole point of retaining the "e" in "swingeing" is to indicate the soft sound of the "g", distinguishing it from "swinging" (present participle of "swing"). If you're still reading it with a hard "g", then you're missing the distinction. Presumably you pronounce "singing" (from "sing") and "singeing" (from "singe") differently.

I can't think of a single word ending in "-ge" where the "g" is pronounced hard. Is there one?

I can't think of a single word ending in "-ge" where the "g" is pronounced hard. Is there one?

Let's see, I can only think of one: renege.

Even with renege I've heard both pronunciations.

I think the soft "g" is non-standard though. All the online dictionaries give it with a hard "g" (although there's quite a lot of variation permitted in the preceding vowel).

"Renege" is certainly an interesting exception. Generally speaking when a hard "g" is required in that position it's marked with a following "u" (plague, vague, league, rogue, vogue, brogue, fugue etc.). There does appear to be a variant spelling "renegue", but I don't think I've seen it used.

quote:

Even with renege I've heard both pronunciations.

Not in the U.S., Bob.

Since we are speaking of pronunciations, how do you pronounce niche? I have heard it so many ways and I don't use it because I don't know the right way to pronounce it.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Since we are speaking of pronunciations, how do you pronounce niche? I have heard it so many ways and I don't use it because I don't know the right way to pronounce it.

Well I normally say "neesh" (/niːʃ/ in IPA), roughly the same as the French pronunciation, but I have heard "nitch" (/nɪtʃ/) as well. I believe the latter is standard in the US.

What other pronunciations have you heard?

same as Guy.

"neesh" (/niːʃ/ in IPA)

I normally pronounce it /niːʃ/, but the older English pronunciation was /nɪtʃ/. I have seen arguments along the lines of how to pronounce forte as one or two syllables. (And whether the word is from Italian (two syllables) or French (one syllable because the -e has no accent aigu) anyway.)

[Edited to corrected transposed pronunciations.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:
I have seen arguments along the lines of how to pronounce forte as one or two syllables. (And whether the word is from Italian (two syllables) or French (one syllable because the -e has no accent aigu) anyway.)

Interesting... forte was borrowed from French fort, and the feminine form with the final -e was substituted ("ignorantly" says the OED) for the masculine. So if we want to be etymologically correct, we should pronounce forte as for.

I think this example is a good demonstration of why etymology does not help you use English.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: goofy,

quote:

I think this example is a good demonstration of why etymology does not help you use English.

Wow. That's quite a statement.

Does anyone pronounce niche, like "nitch?" [sorry about the lack of IPA.] I've heard it that way.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Wow. That's quite a statement.

Really? Are there examples of how etymology helps you use English?

Well, it all depends on how strict you want to be with "helps you use English" (do I sound like Bill Clinton? ) What struck me from reading a little about spelling bees is how important knowing the etymology can be with helping you spell words. However, maybe that's not "using English?" Maybe we don't care since we have spellchecks? So, maybe you are right.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Well, it all depends on how strict you want to be with "helps you use English" (do I sound like Bill Clinton? ) What struck me from reading a little about spelling bees is how important knowing the etymology can be with helping you spell words. However, maybe that's not "using English?" Maybe we don't care since we have spellchecks? So, maybe you are right.

I think spelling words is "using English". But do we actually use etymology to arrive at the correct spelling when we are not in spelling bees? I don't, but maybe other people do.

But etymology doesn't always help. Etymologically, island should not be spelled with s and foetus should not be spelled with o. In the other thread I give other examples where knowing the etymology won't help you spell.

quote:

Originally posted by goofy:
But do we actually use etymology to arrive at the correct spelling when we are not in spelling bees?

I do occasionally. In spelling "Mediterranean" it helps me to remember that it comes from "medius" + "terra".