Kalleh says elsewhere, "I cannot tell you the number of his limericks that I've workshopped where I've had to smoosh syllables together."

Is smoosh a combination of smash and smooch?

I thought it was more of a word than it is. It isn't in the OED, and it is only in the online AHD. In Wikipedia they talk about the "girls of Smoosh," which is a rock group. The AHD calls it informal, meaning to "squash" or "smash." They say the etymology is "imitative." Imitative of "squash" and "smash?"

I heard it just yesterday from a transplanted New England Jewish woman who was visiting us. Is it Yiddish?

I always thought it was spelled smush to rhyme with "tush" or "mush".

Three children in the back seat are likely to complain that one of them is being "smushed" by the other two.

There's an NBA basketball player named Smush Parker.

quote: I always thought it was spelled smush to rhyme with "tush" or "mush".

To me, 'tush' rhymes with 'push', not with 'mush'.

I say smoosh like s-moo-sh
I say tush to rhyme with push...but not smoosh
I say mush to rhyme with hush...completely differently.

I checked dictionary.com and - according to their phonetic symbols -

1. tush, hush, and mush rhyme
2. push and smoosh rhyme
3. Words in 1. do not rhyme with words in 2.

To me, they all rhyme with the same sound.

What really disappointed me, though, was that they didn't have "smush" at all.

So I guess I should look for a "better" dictionary.

I've always heard "tush" said with a short "u," rhyming with "bush." Maybe it's because I've hung around several Yiddish-influenced people, but that's how it makes sense to pronounce it.

Over here, we don't use "tush" in the sense you mean. As an interjection, meaning "piffle!" or meaning a tusk, we would pronounce it (in the South, anyway) with a shorter "u" than in "bush"; more like the "u" in "bus". The Midlands and the North of England would use a longer vowel.

Except that we probably wouldn't say it all in the Midlands.

quote:

Originally posted by BobHale:
Except that we probably wouldn't say it all in the Midlands.

True; we probably wouldn't use it here, either. Both uses are pretty well obsolescent.

Well, I don't get it. I thought maybe it was a regional difference, but Frank and I live 2 suburbs away! Push and tush rhyme for me, too. Do you say t-uh-sh then, Frank? I haven't heard it said that way before. I say mush and hush that way.

The reason they don't quite rhyme is that in "push" the initial plosive "p" leaves your lips in a different position for the following vowel and the altered shape of the mouth changes the sound of it. You can make them rhyme either by intentionally focing the lips into the "P" position while saying the m or h sound or by softening the "p".

quote:

Originally posted by arnie:
Over here, we don't use "tush" in the sense you mean. As an interjection, meaning "piffle!" or meaning a tusk, we would pronounce it (in the South, anyway) with a shorter "u" than in "bush"; more like the "u" in "bus". The Midlands and the North of England would use a longer vowel.

Is it related to "pish tosh" -- or is that just a Wodehouse-ism?

Ph

Okay, Bob. Take the first letters off of push and tush; do they rhyme then? I think they do, but my understanding is that Frank thinks they don't.

quote:

Is it related to "pish tosh" -- or is that just a Wodehouse-ism?

Yes, it's a variant. I doubt it was a coined by Wodehouse, but no-one says that anymore, either.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Okay, Bob. Take the first letters off of push and tush; do they rhyme then? I think they do, but my understanding is that Frank thinks they don't.

You can't. Because then you are asking does "ush" rhyme with "ush".
Like or not speech is connected. When you speak you don't pronounce letters individually or even syllables or words individually. What you do is make one long stream of sound where each componant sound is affect by the position the mouth was left in by the preceding one. To do what you suggest would involve positioning your lips and tongue in the place they would be after making the "p" of push. Stopping without moving them and then, making then "ush" sound. Then doing the same with the "t" and no, in those circumstances they wouldn't be exactly the same sound.

With all that said I'd say they'd be close enough to pass in a limerick.

The reason they don't quite rhyme is that in "push" the initial plosive "p" leaves your lips in a different position for the following vowel and the altered shape of the mouth changes the sound of it. You can make them rhyme either by intentionally focing the lips into the "P" position while saying the m or h sound or by softening the "p".

While what Bob says is strictly true for a phonetic POV, it usually doesn't hold psychologically for speakers from a phonological POV. That is, while to those who know the p in stop, spot, and pot are all pronounced differently, but to the naive, native speaker they all sound the same.

Your lips are in the same position at the beginning of saying a /p/ as they are for saying an /m/: they are both bilabials. And, they both open when pronouncing the following vowel. They seem awfully close in pronunciation to me. If the bit of aspiration after the p is afffecting the voweling vowel, then it would be in a similar way to how the vowel sounds after the h. Again, they're all rather close, and not as different as how the three different p get pronounced in the words aboveabove.

Ther. The first three rhyme with one another, as do the final two. For the purposes of poetical rhyme:

push /'pʊʃ/
smoosh /'smʊʃ/ 'mix, mash together'
tush /'tʊʃ/ 'butt; BE bum'
mush /'mʌʃ/ 'porridge'
hush /'hʌʃ/ 'be quiet'

quote:

Originally posted by BobHale:

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Okay, Bob. Take the first letters off of push and tush; do they rhyme then? I think they do, but my understanding is that Frank thinks they don't.

You can't. Because then you are asking does "ush" rhyme with "ush".
Like or not speech is connected.... With all that said I'd say they'd be close enough to pass in a limerick.

I agree with the last sentence: I'd certainly use them -- maybe even have already -- in a limerick.

But to make the initial point even more, er, pointedly: does '-ough' rhyme with '-ough'? Not just 'dough' (doe) / 'through' (threw) / 'bough' (bow[-wow]) but also 'tough' (tuff) / 'trough' (troff) : on my tongue, NONE of those words rhyme.

Phroggye

From Bob's and Frank's point of view then (though I agree with Zmj), I must not understand what rhyming means. It is a slam dunk for me that "push" and "tush" rhyme, whether you separate the "p" and "t" or not.

I don't think I understand anymore. In American English, tush 'butt, bum' and push rhyme. I thought what Bob and the other British members were talking about is an interjection tush that rhymes with mush. Two different words.

I can't speak for others but for me the question of wheher tush (meaning arse) rhymes with push is unaswerable. It's a word that doesn't exist in British English.

The exclamatory tush is also very rare nowadays. My only point was that because the words are all single syllabled and ending in -ush that doesn't make them perfect rhymes. Without being physically present to demonstrate the two different sounds there's little more that I can do.

Incidentally the "u" sound that is represented in the phonemic alphabet by what looks like an upside down v doesn't exist in most British accents, hanging on only in the variety now usually called "estuary English".

The only time I've even used "tush" was when I rhymed it with "Anheuser Busch" in a limerick that was critical of their stance against the brewers of real Budweiser.

Which one is sponsoring the World Cup, the US upstart or the real one?

Typing as an American English speaker who uses tush 'butt' in speech on occasion, I can say that it definitely rhymes with (my pronunciation of) push, but not with mush. My pronunciation of tush is the one I hear regularly from American English speakers.

quote:

Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy:
Which one is sponsoring the World Cup, the US upstart or the real one?

The US upstart. Such a shame the USA got booted out of the competition early.

This is completely off topic, but how do they select the teams which appear at all?

how do they select the teams which appear at all?

According to this article:

quote:

Qualifying tournaments are held within the six FIFA continental zones (Africa, Asia, North and Central America and Caribbean, South America, Oceania, Europe), and are organized by their respective confederations. For each tournament, FIFA decides beforehand the number of spots awarded to each of the continental zones, based on the relative strength of the confederations' teams (and, some may argue, political considerations).

I understand that it's all over, thank goodness. Now maybe I'll be able to see some new on the TV.

quote:

Typing as an American English speaker who uses tush 'butt' in speech on occasion, I can say that it definitely rhymes with (my pronunciation of) push, but not with mush. My pronunciation of tush is the one I hear regularly from American English speakers.

My thoughts precisely.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Well, I don't get it. I thought maybe it was a regional difference, but Frank and I live 2 suburbs away! Push and tush rhyme for me, too. Do you say t-uh-sh then, Frank? I haven't heard it said that way before. I say mush and hush that way.

Actually, I might have had one beer too many when I wrote that.

Push, mush, tush, smush all rhyme for me. I didn't know there was a word like "smoosh". And the word "mush" means something sentimental. And a "tush" is a butt.

Mush and hush rhyme if "mush" means some porridge-like stuff one might be "eating".

What is the word "mush" if it doesn't mean porridge?

When you come to Birmingham, Kalleh, we'll try to sort out a meal with some mushy peas for you.

mushy peas AND faggots?

I'd say you can count me out on that particular meal.