Wordcraft Community Home Page
Dictionaries of the late 1700s
April 04, 2010, 09:18
GeoffDictionaries of the late 1700s
I was watching a program on C-SPAN about coded/encrypted messages used during the US Revolution. The speaker referred to a work called Entic's New Spelling Dictionary, or something similar. I find nothing on it. Can anyone shed some light on it?
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. -J. Krishnamurti
April 04, 2010, 09:33
GeoffAnother question: The speaker averred that in the late 1700s "i" and "j" were pronounced the same, as were "u" and 'v." Is this so? I thought they differentiated earlier.
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. -J. Krishnamurti
April 04, 2010, 12:50
zmježd The speaker referred to a work called Entic's New Spelling Dictionary, or something similar.John Entick (
link) was an 18th century hack writer, and not much of a lexicographer. What is he supposed to have done?
(
link).
The speaker averred that in the late 1700s "i" and "j" were pronounced the same, as were "u" and 'v." Is this so? I thought they differentiated earlier.Well, if the speaker was talking about letters,
i and
j were interchangeable in spelling, but the statement does not make much sense to me. These letter represented the sounds /ʤ/ (as in
ju
dge), /j/ (as in
yet), /ɪ/ (as in b
it), and /i/ (as in m
ean amongst others).
I wouldn't really have much faith in the mass media when it comes to matters linguistic. If you want to learn more about encryption, etc., you're better off reading David Kahn's
The Codebreakers: The Story of Secret Writing.
—Ceci n'est pas un seing.
April 04, 2010, 13:39
GeoffVery good, z! I note that he gives both the earlier and current form of "s," and that he spells "color" as I just did.
The speaker who cited this work did so in the context of its being used as a base work for codes in which a page, line, and word number were given in the encoded message, so that the same edition of the work was essential to deciphering it. He did NOT comment on the quality of Entick's scholarship!
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. -J. Krishnamurti
April 04, 2010, 16:27
<Proofreader>quote:
you're better off reading David Kahn's The Codebreakers: The Story of Secret Writing.
Yeah, if you have a few months free and you're a body-builder.
April 04, 2010, 16:28
zmježd He did NOT comment on the quality of Entick's scholarship!Ah, very good then. But seriously, Kahn's book is the bomb!
—Ceci n'est pas un seing.
April 04, 2010, 16:56
GeoffTruth to tell I'm not really fascinated by codes; I am fascinated with early US history, thanks to all the current rewriting of much of it.
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. -J. Krishnamurti
April 04, 2010, 17:55
goofyquote:
Originally posted by Geoff:
Another question: The speaker averred that in the late 1700s "i" and "j" were pronounced the same, as were "u" and 'v." Is this so? I thought they differentiated earlier.
It's not really about pronunciation. It was just a spelling convention. The letter
j was originally a variant of
i. It was introduced from French, for instance
iust or
just.
Similarly
v was a variant of
u used word-initially, for instance
vs (us) and
vinegar. In other positions
u was used, for instance
muddie and
ouer (over).
April 05, 2010, 16:20
bethree5interesting, goofy! I've often wondered about those variations. I come across them [& I think a couple of others] when singing madrigals, which mostly date to the 16c., is that when these forms were used? and I gather there was some reason to selecting, say v rather than u, i rather than j, etc? Do you like any particular references on the subject?
April 05, 2010, 18:01
goofyI looked this up in A Biography of the English Language, C.M. Millward, 1988.
J was introduced with Norman French. As far as I can tell, J was rarely used but when it was used, it was used interchangeably with I until late in the 17th century.
V was used word-initially, and U was used everywhere else (as in the examples I gave) from around 1500 to 1800.