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Cutlery
December 26, 2005, 20:20
KallehCutlery
I received a beautiful set of flatware for Hanukkah from my sweet husband. I was a little surprised, however, to see the insert call it "cutlery." I always thought "cutlery" was knives. However, when I look it up, it is described as both "cutting instruments and tools" and then "utensils such as knives,
forks, and spoons used in tableware.Is that how you use the word "cutlery?"
December 26, 2005, 23:32
aputCutlery for me is knives, forks, spoons and the like (I hadn't even registered the possible connexion with 'cut'), but I've never heard the term 'flatware'.
December 27, 2005, 02:58
Richard Englishquote:
Is that how you use the word "cutlery?"
We put all such items in our cutlery-drawer (along with other vital tools such as corkscrews and bottle-openers
Richard English
December 27, 2005, 05:42
arnieYep, cutlery means knives, forks, spoons, etc. to me, too. "Flatware" is strictly a North American term.
Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
December 27, 2005, 17:56
KallehInteresting. I wonder if this definition of "cutlery" is more a UK one. Americans?
I call the knives, forks and spoons that we eat with daily "flatware" or sometimes "silverware," though if it isn't silver that isn't accurate.
December 28, 2005, 04:56
Caterwaullerquote:
I call the knives, forks and spoons that we eat with daily "flatware" or sometimes "silverware," though if it isn't silver that isn't accurate.
Yup - silverware is silver. Flatware is all other such stuff that isn't silver. I bet is a wedding registry kind of language.
*******
"Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions.
~Dalai Lama
December 28, 2005, 06:37
Richard EnglishHere's what Wordweb has to say:
Noun: flatware
Useage: N. Amer.
1. Tableware that is relatively flat and fashioned as a single piece
2. Silverware eating utensils
The term means nothing in the UK.
Richard English
December 30, 2005, 20:57
KHCKalleh,
Why don't you ask CJ Strolin? He is the knife expert.
December 31, 2005, 13:36
KallehThanks, KHC. I will ask him.
December 31, 2005, 17:32
tinmanFrom the OED Online:
quote:
cutlery
[a. OF. coutelerie (mod.F. coutellerie) cutler's art, cutlery, f. coutelierCUTLER: see -ERY.]
a. The art or trade of the cutler. b. collect. Articles made or sold by cutlers, as knives, scissors, etc. Also attrib.
c1449 PECOCK Repr. I. x. 50 As thou therfore sporiorie and cutellerie entermeeneden and enterfereden with gold smyth craft..The al hool craft of cutleri. 1624 in Harper's Mag. (1884) June 72/2 The makers of knives, sickles, shears, scissors, and other cutlery wares. 1792 A. YOUNG Trav. France 49 There is a considerable cutlery manufacture. 1846 MCCULLOCH Acc. Brit. Empire (1854) I. 599 The manufacture of hardware and cutlery at Birmingham, Sheffield, &c.
flat-ware, (a) ‘plates, dishes, saucers and the like, collectively, as distinguished from hollow-ware’ (Cent. Dict.); (b) (esp. U.S.) domestic cutlery
hollow-ware
Bowl- or tube-shaped ware of earthenware, wood, or metal: now especially the last.
1682 Lond. Gaz. No. 1717/8 Francis Scagood,..Hollow-Wear Pewterer, hath Molds and Stocks to Sell. 1703 T. N. City & C. Purchaser 274 All hollow Ware, (as they call Ridge-tyles, Corner, Gutter, and Dormar-tyles). 1744-50 W. ELLIS Mod. Husbandm. VII. II. 79 Maple..is approved of by the turner for making hollow-ware. 1880 Statist. Manuf. U.S. 1059 A coarse, greenish glass, often termed bottle-glass... It is called in this country hollow ware. 1891 Daily News 9 Feb. 2/4 Cast-iron hollow-ware is selling very slowly. 1959 Sears, Roebuck Catal. Spring & Summer 575/4 Melmac Dinner Sets..Holloware in solid color. 1963 Times 28 May 1/7 Domestic holloware made from aluminium. 1972 Daily Tel. 25 Apr. 15 Pans, or ‘holloware’ as they are called in the trade.
tableware
Ware for the service of the table; a collective term for the articles which are used at meals, as dishes, plates, knives, forks, etc.
1772 J. WEDGWOOD Let. 10 Sept. (1965) 134, I think he might by that means sell now and then a sett of it in Tableware. 1832 G. R. PORTER Porcelain & Gl. 16 The principal inventions of Mr. Wedgwood were –1. His table ware. 1897 Outing (U.S.) XXX. 376/2 Each member of the party should provide his own tableware... A cup, plate, and spoon of tin, knife and fork. 1904 Times 26 July 7/3 The mayor..presented him on behalf of the city with a magnificent service of tableware.
When I was a kid, table knives, forks, and spoons were called silverware (in my family) or eating utensils. They were silver in color only. I had no idea then that there were such things made of real silver. I don’t remember hearing the words
cutlery,
flatware, or
tableware until I was older. But I would reserve
cutlery for sharp utensils that actually cut. It seems to me that was the original meaning according to the OED definition above, though it goes beyond the dinner table to include sickles, shears, and scissors. I’d never heard of
hollow-ware until I saw it in the OED.
Tinman
January 01, 2006, 04:12
aputThe OED is missing the required nuance then: while it shows that AmE preserves the original sense of edged implements only, it doesn't show that in BrE it now covers forks and spoons.
'Cutlery' and 'cut' are unrelated, by the way. (Unless 'cut' comes ultimately from a Norse borrowing from Old French. I'm not sure whether chronology and geography intersected enough for that to happen.)
January 01, 2006, 15:18
KallehInteresting, Aput, that
cutlery and
cut are unrelated. The online OED says that the verb form of
cut probably has Scandanavian roots: "The word is not recorded in OE. (nor in any WGer. dialect), and there is no corresponding verb in Romanic. Mod. Norwegian kutte = skjære to cut (chiefly used by sailors) is certainly adopted from English; but a verb kåta, (kutå) = skära, hugga to cut, is widely diffused in Swedish dialects, and app. an old word, from an OTeut. stem *kut-, *kot-, which is probably the source also of the Eng. vb., whatever the intermediate history of the latter."
On the other hand,
cutlery comes from the Old French word
coutelerie, meaning "cutting utensils," from the Old French word
coutel, meaning knife.
Etymology.com says that "cut" either has evolved from the Scandanavian roots
or from the Old French word
coutel, though the OED obviously is more reliable.
Still, if
cutlery comes from a word that means
knives, I wonder how the dinnerware definition evolved.
Tinman, when I was a little, my family also called our knives, forks and spoons "silverware," even though our flatware was only silver in color, too. I forgot about term
dinnerware. That's used a lot, too.
Here is what our esteemed knife seller (CJ) says, KHC, about
cutlery versus
flatware:
"For me, "cutlery" = knives, particularly those used in preparing food, and "flatware" = spoons & forks etc., though dictionaries blur the distinction."
January 01, 2006, 15:57
aputBasically, 'cut' comes from some Scandinavian word, though the recorded exemplars are not enough to tell which. It's all rather murky.
'Cutlery' is more straightforward: the Latin root is
cul- giving
culter 'part of a plough blade', with diminutive of that
cultellus 'knife'. This becomes modern French
couteau 'knife'.
The various Scandinavian forms don't enable us to tell which was the original, but one possibility is something like
*kutel 'knife', which is very close to an intermediate stage (somewhere around the year 800 plus or minus I don't know how much) of the transition between
cultellus and
couteau.
I don't actually think it's likely, because although the Normans were in France round then, forms of the word are recorded in Norwegian, Swedish... you'd need Norman borrowings from Normandy to be transmitted back into Scandinavia. So I don't think that's likely, and the resemblance between 'cut' and 'cutler' is more likely to be just a coincidence.
And it doesn't work for other forms of Latin. That had
cult-, and the loss of the [l] was particular to Old French, so
cut- couldn't come from Latin generally, only from the French variety of it.
January 01, 2006, 17:20
wordnerdReading Onions' etymology, here's Onions'
cut:
cut² make a way with an edged innsstrument into (an object). XIII. ... The early dial. vars. cutte, kitte, kette point to an OE. *cyttan, f. *kut- (cf. Norw. kutte, Icel. kuta cut with a little knife, kuti sb. little blunt knife).
Notice that while OED says the word is not found in Old English (as Kalleh notes), Onions is willing to hypothesize it.
As to the French terms: Yes, the modern french
couteau = knife has lost the 'l', but the old form was
coutel had it. (I can't say when it changed.) In other words, it had the same C-T-L pattern as 'cutlery'. So did our their
coutelas, leading to our 'cutlass'.
But if you try to take it back to the Latin, you find not C-T-L but C-L-T:
cultellus. In Italian, 'cutlass' also has the latinate C-L-T. If the French got their words from Latin, somehow they reversed the T and the L.
Or maybe the French had another source. Consider English 'cutlet'. The French for 'rib' was
coste (modern form
côte); the diminutive was
costelette in Old French and
cotelette later, which English took as 'cutlet". Here we are back to the C-T-L pattern, achieved without reference to the Latin C-L-T words.
January 01, 2006, 23:16
aputSkeat's etymological dictionary cites a few more Scandinavian cognates: Mid. Swed.
kotta 'cut', Swed. dial.
kuta, kåta, köta, käta 'cut small with a knife',
kuta, kytti 'knife'; and the interesting ones, Norw.
kyttel, kytel, kjutul 'knife for barking trees'.
Now first, it's not entirely clear what the original vowel was, though [u] looks most likely; and second, the suffix on the Norwegian words is probably just the common Germanic instrument suffix
-el/-le as in thimble, handle, bundle. If so, it's unrelated to the Latin diminutive
-ell-. However, this does give the possible *
kutel which just possibly came from a French word of the same form and meaning.
The Latin word went
cultellum >
coltello >
coltel >
couteau, where the spelling with <u> actually represented a diphthong with the vowel [u] in Middle French. In Mod. Fr. the spelling has remained but the vowels have changed further. The [l] > [u] change is common (modern southern English, Polish, Portuguese), and no interchange of consonants was required. The existence of
coutel shows that the first [l] changed first.
January 02, 2006, 10:57
wordnerdVery interesting, aput, to the extent I can follow it. My brain is spinning. Thank you.
You mention
-le as a Germanic instrument-suffix (thimble; handle; bundle). Is it related to
-le as a diminutive suffix (chuckle, giggle)? Is either version of
-le connected with the suffix
-lette, which we saw in the french predecessor of 'cutlet', and seem to me to be a diminutive?
January 02, 2006, 11:15
zmježdThe French suffix -
lette is a double diminutive. (Like German -
chen and -
lein.) Cutlet became, by loan translation,
Schnitzel in German (from the verb
schneiden 'to cut'). Diminutive suffixes also connote cuteness or preciousness.
—Ceci n'est pas un seing.
January 02, 2006, 14:34
Robert ArvanitisDinner gathering on New Year's Day. The Greeks cut the Vasilopita ("Basil Cake") on the first, looking for the embedded coin.
Family discussion turns to the proper
assortment of utensils for a formal dinner.
Then I see the fellowship at Wordcrafters is already deep into a similar topic.
Thus I share a small note on cutlery from the first conversation, regarding the fish knife. Seems the fish knife was a later invention, so owning fish knives meant one bought, rather than inherited, the family silverware. Occasion for a bit of snobbery.
RJA
November 10, 2010, 11:20
KitHi I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas as to why my family refer to cutlery i.e. knife and forks etc as the tools. We live in New Zealand and are of irish decent.
November 10, 2010, 15:58
GeoffHello, Kit! In the USA one sometimes hears, "kitchen utensils," and since "utensil" and "tool" are related words it seems not much of a leap from utensil to tool.
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. -J. Krishnamurti
November 10, 2010, 19:50
KitI never noticed that this was an unusual usage until my daughter pointed it out to me. She says 'normal' people use tools to refer to garden or workshop tools.
I find it interesting when people use different words or pronunciation and wonder were it originates from. e.g. My nieces say 'dressing gownd" for dressing gown. Also English immigrants or even children of English immigrants with a totally New Zealand accent will often still say uz instead of us like the english do.
November 10, 2010, 20:52
KallehWelcome, Kit. It's great to have someone else here from New Zealand. Our Stella is from there, too, though she has been a bit ill recently.
As Geoff says, we might say "utensils," but not tools, at least in the U.S. How about in England?
November 11, 2010, 01:55
arnieI can't say I have seen or heard 'tools' being used in this way, but wouldn't be surprised if I did. I've also heard cutlery referred to jocularly as 'eating irons' in the past, by the way.
Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.