I entered a weird discussion yesterday with someone in my local pub. Tadgh told me about his elderly father who fractured his hip. I asked him how this happened and his response was "Dad took a bad fall.".

Which confused me because to my understanding (and in line with the wonderful Andy M. Stewart's reasoning) ... "it's not the fall but landing that alters social standing".

Is this a particular in the Irish use of the English language that a "fall" is blamed on breaking bones and not the contact with the floor.


Bea

"Bad fall" is a common phrase in the U.S., at least around here. The earliest citation I've found in the OED Online is from 1855:

quote:

bad, adj.
II. In a positive sense: evil, unpleasant, deleterious, noxious, etc.
9. Tending to have a deleterious or damaging effect, esp. on health; injurious, hurtful, noxious, hazardous. Also, of a person: tough, ruthless. Freq. with for; formerly also (U.S.) with on.

1855 T. B. Macaulay Hist. Eng. IV. 723 He had just had a bad fall in hunting.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: tinman,

It's common enough in British English as well. As Bea says, it's not really the fall that's injurious, but the landing. In a similar way, people who are scared of flying are actually afraid of the plane crashing.

bad fall

If somebody told me their father had had a bad landing, I'd ask what flight they were on. It seems to me that fall in this sense may include the landing. That's why the bad as a qualifier. If you said that your father had a splendid fall the other day, but unfortunately broke his hip upon landing, I would expect you were joking.

Something like a "near miss" which is technically a good hit.

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:
bad fall

If somebody told me their father had had a bad landing, I'd ask what flight they were on. It seems to me that fall in this sense may include the landing. That's why the bad as a qualifier. If you said that your father had a splendid fall the other day, but unfortunately broke his hip upon landing, I would expect you were joking.

But doesn't the term "landing" equal "stop the fall"? One may have enjoyed a good fall but may still suffer from a bad landing? Like someone doing freefalling but landing in a tree or a tombstoner hitting shallow water?

Bea

But people do not say they had a bad landing, they say they had a bad fall. That's the proper way to say it. You're free to say it some other way, but then you run the risk of folks not understanding you.

Several years ago, the FAA classified a crash as an "uncontrolled landing", or some other euphemistic phrase.

The way I see it, a bad fall is not a euphemism but just plain language in action.

quote:

Originally posted by Proofreader:
Several years ago, the FAA classified a crash as an "uncontrolled landing", or some other euphemistic phrase.

An aircraft does not fall from the sky unless something goes wrong; a landing is merely descending flight. A good landing is one which leaves the aircraft capable of taking off again.

I agree, Bea, that "bad fall" is an idiosyncratic expression, quite illogical, but very common.

quite illogical

I am forced again to ask what is the connection between logic and semantics (or grammar)?

quote:

I am forced again to ask what is the connection between logic and semantics (or grammar)?

At times, none.

Yeah, it's a case wherein the "sem" gets left off and only the "antics" remain.

quote:

But people do not say they had a bad landing, they say they had a bad fall.

That's the proper way to say it. You're free to say it some other way, but then you run the risk of folks not understanding you.

I suppose it all depends on your definition of "proper" because I see the point made here about the injury being due to the landing and not the fall. (However, to add another variable, some high falls, themselves, can create injuries on the way down.)

I wonder, though. You could say you've had a "bad landing from a fall," after all. Perhaps there are some people in English speaking countries that do. I didn't find many references to the phrase on Google, but I did find a few. They were mostly on discussion boards. I don't know. I am not willing to say it's not proper to say it that way because to me it seems most proper. How do we know that those who live in New Zealand or Australia or Canada or wherever don't say it that way?