Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Unpleasant places Login/Join
 
Member
Picture of wordcrafter
posted
Let's visit some undesirable places.

Dogpatch – the prototype of the low-class, rural hick
[From the comic strip Li'l Abner by Al Capp, set in the mythical town of Dogpatch]

Since this term has not been included in any dictionary, I'll support it with more citations than usual.
    … one-time Nixon aide Monica Crowley writes how her old boss wrote to Bill Clinton in 1992 to congratulate him on "a very well-run campaign." However, when three months passed without a reply from the President, Nixon complained, "What do you expect? They're Arkansas dogpatch."
    – Human Events, April 26, 2004

    Benyamin Cohen, editor of the online publication Jewsweek, went to see The Passion Of The Christ and came out homicidal: "My first comprehensible thought was this: I really want to kill a Jew." Maureen Dowd of The New York Times agreed: "Here, you want to kick in some Jewish and Roman teeth. And since the Romans have melted into history...." But I reckon Dowd and Cohen are faking it. They don't mean that marquee columnists and liberal Jewish New Yorkers will be rampaging around looking for Jews to kill, they mean all those rubes and hicks in Dogpatch who don't know any better will be doing so.
    – Mark Steyn, Jerusalem Post, March 2, 2004

    Puerto Ricans will cast their ballots for statehood, independence or a continuation of commonwealth status. But don't Americans have the right not to be saddled with an impoverished, crime-ridden island of non-English speakers as our 51st state? … It's hard to imagine a worse candidate for admission to the Union than this Caribbean Dogpatch.
    – Don Feder, No Statehood for Caribbean Dogpatch, Boston Herald, Nov. 30, 1998

    Hillary Clinton raised the dread specter of a vast anti-Arkansas conspiracy as the hidden factor behind her husband's legal plight. "I think a lot of this is prejudice against our state," the first lady declared. The Dogpatch defense seems bizarre enough to pass the sincerity test. … This is not the first time that Mrs. Clinton has portrayed Arkansas as an unfairly maligned state.
    – Walter Shapiro, Hillary's Dogpatch Defense, Slate Magazine, Aug. 11, 1998

    They depicted Paula [Jones] as a Dogpatch Madonna who cut lose after a strict religious upbringing … smoking, drinking beer, dancing, and doing other things that were forbidden at home.
    – Melinda Beck, Newsweek, May 23, 1994

This message has been edited. Last edited by: wordcrafter,
 
Posts: 2670Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of arnie
posted Hide Post
Two of the citations tie Dogpatch and Arkansas together. Was Li'l Abner specifically from Arkansas, or is it that the state just has a high proportion of hicks?


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
Posts: 10930 | Location: LondonReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of wordcrafter
posted Hide Post
A slough is a stagnant bog or mire, mucky and difficult to slog through. Hence,

slough of despond – a state of extreme depression
[From John Bunyan's allegory, Pilgrim's Progress: "Now I saw in my dream, that … they drew near to a very miry slough … ; and they, being heedless, did both fall suddenly into the bog. The name of the slough was Despond. Here, therefore, they wallowed for a time, being grievously bedaubed with the dirt; and Christian … began to sink in the mire."]
    Jennifer Capriati, for instance, has credited her black Lab-boxer puppy with helping her emerge from her own slough of despond.
    – Tom Junod, Sports Illustrated, April 10, 1995
 
Posts: 2670Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Richard English
posted Hide Post
Slough is also the name of a town west of London. It is a dismal place whose attractions were immortalised by John Betjemen who wrote a poem that started:

"Come friendly bombs and fall on Slough!
It isn't fit for humans now,"

You can read it all here: http://www-cdr.stanford.edu/intuition/Slough.html


Richard English
 
Posts: 8037 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UKReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Arnie,
I'm so glad you all escaped injury in the bombings! My heart goes out to London...

Re your previous post - Dogpatch.. I'm sure Arkansas has plenty of hicks, as do all the remaining 49 states... I have relatives in Minnesota and New York, who would certainly qualify..Smile And, of course, Arkansas did produce Bill and Hilary... I won't say anymore.

There is a good website on Lil' Abner.... http://www.lil-abner.com... if you care to visit it.. Al Capp was a great social satirist.

Stay safe!

[Edited to correct link by arnie]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: arnie,
 
Posts: 3737 | Location: Georgia, USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of wordcrafter
posted Hide Post
potter's field - a burial ground for burying paupers and unclaimed bodies; also figurative
[alludes to the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 27]

The term is more interesting when used figuratively. For example:
    Hardly a book of human worth is honestly placed before the reader; it is either shunned, given a Periclean funeral oration in a hundred and fifty words, or interred in the potter's field of the newspapers' back pages.
    – Edward Dahlberg (1900-1977), U.S. author, critic; "For Sale," Alms for Oblivion (1964)

    Trite terms represent simplications of real and sometimes important concepts that can be very useful, until we forget what it was they were supposed to be useful about. They then become dangerous, empty reifications or are relegated to menial uses and finally buried in the potter's field of pedantry.
    – Lawrence B. Slobodkin, Simplicity and Complexity in Games of the Intellect

    Ventures into Verse: Being Various Ballads, Ballades, Rondeaux, Triolets, Songs, Quatrains, Odes and Roundelays. Rescued from the Potters' Field of Old Files and Here Given Decent Burial [Peace to their Ashes]
    – Title page of H.L. Mencken's first book, 1903 (very rare; 100 copies printed, only 37 survive)
 
Posts: 2670Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of arnie
posted Hide Post
Thanks KHC!

According to that site there used to be a Dogpatch theme park in Arkansas...


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
Posts: 10930 | Location: LondonReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Arnie,

Wouldn't you just LOVE to visit that park? Thanks for correcting my post... I'm just not sure what I did wrong. Glad you are safe and sound..
 
Posts: 3737 | Location: Georgia, USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of wordcrafter
posted Hide Post
The Bible tells that Judas was paid thirty pieces of silver to betray Christ. That money was used to buy a potter's field, which became known as the "field of blood" – which, in the local tongue, was Alcedama. Acts 1:19; Matthew 27:8. Hence today's word, which is quite rare.

aceldama – a field of blood; a bloody battlefield
    The struggle between the Macedonians and Greeks, for an unprofitable superiority, form one of the bloodiest scenes in history. … we cannot judge that their intestine divisions, and their foreign wars, consumed less than three millions of their inhabitants. What an Aceldama, what a field of blood Sicily has been in ancient times. You will find every page of its history dyed in blood.
    – Edmund Burke (private letter)

    (US Civil War, 1862): During the ten days I remained at Corinth the town was a perfect aceldama … The wounded were brought in by hundreds. Above 5000 wounded men, demanding instant and constant attendance … A much larger proportion of amputations was performed than would have been necessary if the wounds could have received earlier attention. On account of exposure, many wounds were gangrenous. Where amputation was performed, eight out of ten died.
    – William G. Stevenson, quoted in Harold Elk Straubing, In Hospital and Camp

    … while carnage was laying its scores of victims around him-we behold him riding from point to point, bringing order out of confusion, and leading away from that aceldama the shattered battalions of the proud army of the morning …
    – B.J. Lossing, George Washington's Mount Vernon
Notice the unusual use of intestine in the first quote.
intestine (adj.) – internal
 
Posts: 2670Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of wordcrafter
posted Hide Post
Hooverville – a shantytown of temporary homes
[Areas like this, thrown up at the start of the Great Depression, were sardonically named after then-president Herbert Hoover]

Would you agree that this term, unlike (say) 'slum' or 'shantytown', conveys a sense of disconnection, dispossession?
    One of the most popular stories circulating today has to do with a variously described "death" of the American Dream. All the key words of the pronouncement are fuzzy - What exactly is the American Dream? Just who qualifies as middle class? - but there is a palpable sense that we are living in a barren ruin of a country, a Hooverville from sea to shining sea.
    – Nick Gillespie (book review), Reason, Dec. 1996

    [Review of the movie "Cinderella Man'] Poverty is an inadequate word to describe the circumstances Americans found themselves in during the period. While Howard does create a sense that it was a very short stroll from Hooverville to Potters Field, he neglects the larger social and economic forces that drove the downturn.
    – Duane Dudek, The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, June 3, 2005
 
Posts: 2670Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of wordcrafter
posted Hide Post
take to the woodshed (or 'to woodshed') – U.S politics: 1. orig.: to 'grill' someone brutally, in private; to subject to no-holds-barred questioning 2. more commonly: to criticize scathingly.
From the image of a pioneer father taking his son "out behind the woodshed" for a serious talking-to, perhaps using a leather strap to emphasize his point.
    Howard Dean accused Republicans of never "having done an honest day's work in their lives" [etc.] … Called to the woodshed by Senate leaders when his hate-filled attacks diverted attention from the Democrats' message, Mr. Dean slightly toned down his rhetoric.
    – Bill Sammon, The Washington Times, June 22, 2005
To explain and use the original sense, we turn to A Good Life: Newspapering and Other Adventures by newspaper editor Ben Bradlee, whose reporters broke the Watergate story.
    … take … "to the woodshed," an old political practice described to me by Jim Rowe, a longtime Washington powerbroker. Jim Rowe had taken Hubert Humphrey to the woodshed at the request of President Lyndon B. Johnson, before LBJ decided on Humphrey as his vice-presidential running mate. When you take someone to the woodshed, Rowe told me, you get him off in a room alone and grill him about his taxes, his health, his girlfriends, his finances, his war record, his debts, his addictions, his innermost secrets.

    … Dusko Doder, our cigar-chomping expert on Soviet affair for the last twelve years … we couldn't pull Doder off the [story] on the basis of hearsay testimony from a once and future KGB agent. Ed Williams took Doder to the woodshed, as we had requested, grilling him for almost two hours, and reporting back to me: "Fuck 'em … he's a terrific guy … the charges are horse shit."

This message has been edited. Last edited by: wordcrafter,
 
Posts: 2670Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
From the OED Online:
quote:
woodshed, n.

2. fig. a. Phr. to take into the woodshed and varr.: to reprimand or punish. N. Amer. Colloq.
From the old tradition of giving a child a spanking in the woodshed, i.e. not in the presence of others.

1907 St. Nicholas July 826/2 He could save himself and most of his companions from unpleasant reckonings in various and sundry woodsheds. 1949 Time 18 Apr. 22/2 If you don't do what we tell you to do we are going to take you out into the woodshed. 1966 Toronto Daily Star 21 Dec. 14 (heading) Taking the Senator to the woodshed. 1983 Chicago Sun-Times 16 July 34 Assuming the Fed is traditionally pliant, why does not Reagan simply take Volcker to the woodshed and tell him to ease up?

c. Mus. Slang. As a place where a musician may, or should, practise in private (see also quot. 1937).

1937 Printers' Ink Monthly May 45/3 Wood shed, a severe rehearsal. 1946 Hollywood Note June 4 T.D. [sc. Tommy Dorsey] goes back to the woodshed. 1977 Rolling Stone 16 June 66/2 Leavell's playing won't scare many jazz pianists into the woodshed.

woodshed, v.

Mus. slang.

trans. and intr. To practise or rehearse, esp. privately (see also quot. 1978).

1936 L. ARMSTRONG Swing that Music 71 We used to practice together, ‘wood-shed’ as we say (from the old-time way of going out into the wood-shed to practice a new song). 1946 MEZZROW & WOLFE Really the Blues viii. 108 I'll have to woodshed this thing awhile so I can get straight with you all. 1950 BLESH & JANIS They all played Ragtime (1958) x. 203, I would hear the tunes and, to make sure, go home and ‘woodshed’ them in every key, put them in major and minor and all the ninth chords. 1968 A. YOUNG in A. Chapman New Black Voices (1972) Drew's got an alto [horn]... Drew dont hardly touch it, he too busy woodsheddin his drums. 1978 Amer. Speech 1975 L. 302 [Jargon of barber-shop singing.] Woodshed, work out the harmony parts (to a known melody) by ear; sing as a group for the first time..; improvise (an interpretation).

Hence woodshedding vbl. n., (a) the dispensing of punishment; (b) the practice or rehearsal of music; (c) spontaneous or improvised barber-shop singing.

1940 Amer. Speech XV. 205 Woodshedding, disciplinary action. 1946 MEZZROW & WOLFE Really the Blues ix. 151 Instead of woodshedding, he went out after the big money with the primitive equipment he had when he started. 1955 SHAPIRO & HENTOFF Hear me talkin' to Ya xi. 190 It was here that the term ‘woodshedding’ originated. When one of the gang wanted to rehearse his part, he would go off into the woods and practice. 1956 S. LONGSTREET Real Jazz xiii. 101 Bix [Beiderbecke] did plenty of woodshedding, playing alone, to some recording on the family Victrola. 1973 T. PYNCHON Gravity's Rainbow I. 129 No head falsetto here but complete, out of the honest breast, a baritone voice brought over years of woodshedding up to this range. 1974 Harmonizer Jan.-Feb. 18/2 Woodshedding is not a ‘spectator sport’ only participants can fully enjoy it. 1976 Times 27 Sept. 12/4 Spontaneous barbershopping is known as woodshedding, because a woodshed is as good a place as any to burst into sudden song.

It seems from these quotes that the phrase originally referred to applying physical discipline, and later acquired a musical meaning (which I had never heard of). The political meaning is simply a metaphorical extension of the original meaning.

Tinman
 
Posts: 2770 | Location: Shoreline, WA, USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of arnie
posted Hide Post
I must say that none of these US uses for woodshed appear to have crossed the pond.

My first thought is of Great Aunt Ada Doom in Stella Gibbon's wonderful novel Cold Comfort Farm, who saw something nasty therein.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
Posts: 10930 | Location: LondonReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Richard English
posted Hide Post
Years ago I had a record called: "In the Woodshed She said She Would", which I always thought was by Lesley Sarony. However it seems it was written by H Johnson and M Siegel. Maybe Sarony perfomed it but, as he used usually to write his own material, that seems strange.

In this instance the woodshed was the solution to the lovelorn singer's prayers since it was in the woodshed that she said ahe would (kiss him, that is - this was 1928 after all!)


Richard English
 
Posts: 8037 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UKReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
“Woodshed” also appears in the phrase, “something nasty in the woodshed” in the OED Online:
quote:
d. something nasty in the (also his, etc.) woodshed: a traumatic experience or concealed unpleasantness in a person's history (in allusion to quot. 1932); also in extended use.

[1932 S. GIBBONS Cold Comfort Farm x. 141 When you were very small..you had seen something nasty in the woodshed.] 1959 Sunday Times 5 July 6/6 He enjoyed a temperate childhood: nothing nasty in his woodshed. 1968 B. BAINBRIDGE Another Part of Wood ii. 70 They had all, Joseph, brother Trevor, the younger sister,..come across something nasty in the woodshed, mother or father or both, having it off with someone else. 1992 J. BURCHILL Sex & Sensibility 176 ‘Little people’..always, instinctively, knew that extreme promiscuity..led to heartbreak, confusion and Something Nasty in the Woodshed.

Look again at the 1968 quote, “…something nasty in the woodshed, mother or father or both, having it off with someone else.” That may be the precursor to the 1980s U.S. slang phrase, “doing the nasty.”

Tinman
 
Posts: 2770 | Location: Shoreline, WA, USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of wordcrafter
posted Hide Post
ghetto – a part of a city in which a group is isolated (esp. a poor part, with confinement by social, legal, or economic pressure). fig: a similarly isolating situaton (esp. one of poor status or poor opportunity)

Though the word is familiar, its origin is not. It comes from the area in which 14th-century confined its Jews. The neighbor had formerly been an iron foundry; in Italian, getto.

A 1555 papal bull forced the Jews of Rome to live only in the designated ghetto area. It is perhaps appropriate that the title of that bull was Cum nimis absurdum.
 
Posts: 2670Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I just now came across tinman's statement that "the phrase, 'something nasty in the woodshed' [is] in the OED Online."

OED, and the sources it quotes, are coating an earthier phrase with a whitewash of euphemism. The original phrase is "nigger in the woodpile," though there are a few ghits for "nigger in the woodpile."

Each seems to have originated in the US (and apparently woodshed and woodpile did too). The earliest I cite I could find are these, from 1870. OED's cites (which have been changed since tinman's post) are much later, and if I don't miss my guess they are from the UK. Perhaps the phrase got scrubbed up a bit with the passage of years and of ocean.
    Let the whole instrument be thoroughly ventilated. If there be a nigger in the woodpile, draw him out and show him up. But do not permit a grand measure like this, framed and intended for the benefit of over a million of people, be [sic] thwarted by the machinations of political adversaries or the intrigues of local factionists.
    – New York Herald, Feb. 8, 1870, p. 6(?) col. 4

This message has been edited. Last edited by: wordnerd,
 
Posts: 1184Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
PS, antedating the above:

Here (bottom of page) is an earlier cite, a bit of a ditty from 1863. The author puns – note his title – and plays on "out of the woods" and "nigger in a woodpile". There's further punning if "made your pile of wood" was slang for "made your fortune", like "He made a pile in that deal."
    A CHORD OF WOOD
    Well, New York, you've made your pile
    Of Wood,
    and, if you like, may smile:
    Laugh, if you will, to split your sides,
    But in that Wood pile a nigger hides,
    With a double face beneath his hood:
    Don't hurra till you're out of your Wood.
    – Continental Monthly, April 1863
 
Posts: 1184Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of arnie
posted Hide Post
Wordnerd,

I don't see that 'something nasty in the woodshed' was an euphemism for 'nigger in the woodpile'. Beyond the use use of 'wood', there is unlikely to be any connection, I'd say.

At the time of writing in 1932 'nigger in the woodpile' was not uncommon over here, and Stella Gibbon would have been unlikely to have wanted to 'sanitise' the phrase.

In any case, we are left in doubt as to exactly what Great Aunt Ada had seen, although we are led to believe it had a sexual connotation. The other phrase has a quite different meaning, that of a problem or stumbling-block.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
Posts: 10930 | Location: LondonReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
arnie, I don't think I agree with you, but this may get to be a long discussion. A few quick points.
  • Are you sure the phrase was 'not uncommon' in 1932? I tried to confirm it, but failed.
  • Definitions: I'm finding 'nigger' phrase defined as 'a concealed motive or unexpected factor that adversely affects a situation' (and I'd add that is is a shameful one). There's more, suggesting the phrase is by analogy to a white family lineage containing a black ancestor. [Ugh, these prejudices!] Meanwhile, the 'nasty' phrase means is said to mean 'a shocking or distasteful thing that has been kept secret' (Brewer's Dict. of Modern Phrase and Fable). So the meaning seem similar (though admittedly more varied that just the ones noted here).
  • Finally, agreed that Gibbons was unlikely to be a 'sanitiser', but I'm not suggesting that it was she who sanitised. She's the first recorded user of the phrase that we know of, but there surely there were other users before her, at least orally, and one of them may have been more of a sanitiser than she.
This is getting very interesting. To be continued, I hope.

PS: Does anyone have Cassell's Dictionary of Slang? It seems to define the n-word phrase, but the relevant page is not available in google-books.
 
Posts: 1184Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of arnie
posted Hide Post
I'm basing the statement about the 1930s on my own memories. Although the thirties were before I was born, I can remember the 'nigger' phrase being used in the fifties and sixties over here. As I said, it was not uncommon in those times; if anything I suspect it would heve been even more common twenty years earlier.

I feel reasonably sure that 'something nasty in the woodshed' was coined by Stella Gibbon and caught readers' imagination. Possibly she heard someone talking about something nasty and used it in her novel; we cannot tell now.

I can't agree that two two phrases have close enough meanings to indicate that they come from the same root or that the 'nasty' phrase is an euphemism for the 'nigger' phrase.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
Posts: 10930 | Location: LondonReply With QuoteReport This Post
<Asa Lovejoy>
posted
Back to Dogpatch: Since L'il Abner has been gone for a long time, my memory may be hazy, but I do NOT remember it as being an unpleasant place - ESPECIALLY with Daisy Mae around! Big Grin

Asa, native of a little hick town in South Carolina
 
Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy:
... ESPECIALLY with Daisy Mae around! Big Grin

I thought you gave up Daisys for Sunflowers!

Tinman
 
Posts: 2770 | Location: Shoreline, WA, USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I remember a camp song I learned from my father called "Happy Sunday School", which is how he learned it. It is a cute and catchy song which I sang at many campfires with my Boy Scout Troop. At some point it was discovered the original song was "Darkie Sunday School", and it was no longer appropriate for us to sing in front of the camp.

I thought this was ridiculous, and we still sang it amongst our (all white from a white suburb) troop, but couldn't at the campwide events. A list of the various choruses is here, as well as a ridiculous number of verses. http://www.whitetreeaz.com/yfof/yfofword.htm
 
Posts: 886 | Location: IllinoisReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by wordcrafter July 11, 2005:
Hooverville – a shantytown of temporary homes
[Areas like this, thrown up at the start of the Great Depression, were sardonically named after then-president Herbert Hoover]

Hoovervilles

Tinman
 
Posts: 2770 | Location: Shoreline, WA, USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
<Asa Lovejoy>
posted
Daisy's just a distant memory! Smile Besides, she's L'il Abner's girl! Daisys and Sunflowers are pretty similar anyhow, but Sunflowers have more seeds! Big Grin
 
Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of shufitz
posted Hide Post
A further illustrative quote on Dogpatch, the word that started this thread:
    since i live here in dogpatch, people think i have a pet possum.
    wildflowerchild, July 22, 2002
 
Posts: 2603 | Location: Chicago, IL USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
<Asa Lovejoy>
posted
Whatever bacame of her? Anyone know?
 
Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Kalleh
posted Hide Post
Asa, none of us has been able to reach her after she lost her Internet connection. I was in Atlanta at a conference once and tried to call reach her, to no avail. I hope that she has just forgotten about little old Wordcraft and has moved on.
 
Posts: 23300 | Location: Chicago, USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Kalleh
posted Hide Post
Reviving a thread...

I have been reading a book on Jews in the early part of the century, and the author refers to Louis Wirth's Ghetto, which I haven't read. Apparently at that time some used the word ghetto merely to mean "community." From what I can tell, there didn't seem to be a negative connotation. For example, this is a quote from Robert Park during that time: "Every people and every cultural group may be said to create and maintain its own ghetto." I've only thought of ghetto in a negative light. Have some of you seen it used to mean "community"?
 
Posts: 23300 | Location: Chicago, USAReply With QuoteReport This Post
<Asa Lovejoy>
posted
I'd only heard stetl for "community."
 
Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of zmježd
posted Hide Post
Not having read either book, I hesitate to opine, but ... I see how a ghetto could be considered a community (as well as a shtetl), but I would hesitate to use the terms synonymously. Wirth's book is not fully available on Google Books, but I did read a new introduction to The Ghetto by Hasia Diner (link). Ghetto is an Italian word originally. It is the name of an island near Venice to which Jews were restricted in the 16th century. Its etymology is uncertain. Shtetl is from Yiddish and means literally 'small city'.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
 
Posts: 5085 | Location: R'lyehReply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata  
 


Copyright © 2002-12