On Ariana Huffington's website she quotes Carl Bernstein: "...he reports that then-White House advisor George Stephanopoulos described Hillary's responses to the various scandals of the Clinton presidency as "Jesuitical lying." What's that?

Using what might be described as "over-subtle" reasoning. Casuistry. Sophistry. Bullshit baffles brains.

That's an interesting question, Asa, particularly because I taught at a Jesuit university for a number of years. While I'm not Catholic, I did learn a bit about Jesuits being intellectual, ethical, and always seeking the truth. Yet, in looking up this word, arnie's definition is correct, though the dictionaries also say it means "pertaining to the Jesuits." I wonder why the "crafty" and "sly" definitions are related to Jesuits.

Similarly, the word "casuistry" is confusing to me. All 3 online dictionaries had the first definition similar to this AHD one: "Specious or excessively subtle reasoning intended to rationalize or mislead." But then the second was more in line with what I'd learned about the Jesuits (again from AHD): "The determination of right and wrong in questions of conduct or conscience by analyzing cases that illustrate general ethical rules." Those definitions are really different. Does anyone know why?

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I wonder why the "crafty" and "sly" definitions are related to Jesuits.

Tell it to the pharisees.

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Originally posted by neveu:
Tell it to the pharisees.

I think you have found two more adjectives to describe our recently departed prime Minister's antics.

My boss at work listens to "Dr" Laura Schlesinger, the pharisetical right-wing shrink. She drives me nuts, but is, when heard as comedy, often very funny. When she self-righteously condemns someone, we've taken to calling it "Schlessing."
Ya think our new word might catch on?

Pearce, good to see you here again!!! I've missed you!

Yes, we hope you're back, Pearce! Boy, do I agree with you, Asa; what a jerk that Dr. Laura is.

Does anyone know the background to the "crafty" and "sly" definition of the Jesuits? If not, I probably can get the scoop from some of the faculty where I used to teach.

Neveu, the "hypocritical" and "self-righteousness" of "pharisaical" seems slightly different from "casuistry" definition of "Jesuitical."

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Neveu, the "hypocritical" and "self-righteousness" of "pharisaical" seems slightly different from "casuistry" definition of "Jesuitical."

My point was that the pharisees were another religious sect whose name has become associated with a pejorative adjective.

This brings to mind the Samaritan, whose name has become associated with Good ...

Perhaps world peace can be achieved by publicizing such an association with other group names ... such as ... Good Moslem, Good Republican, Good Communist .... Good President / Vice President .....

Not likely but maybe .... ?

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This brings to mind the Samaritan, whose name has become associated with Good ...

Many years ago I heard a talk I heard on the Beeb about this very topic. The speaker made the point that, far from being "good" the Samaritans were a despised race and the point of the parable was simply that there is good in all men - and not just those from which one would expect good.

This was maybe 40 years ago when colour prejudice in the UK was still fairly common and Afro-Caribbean races, in particular, were commonly regarded as somehow less trustworthy than others. The speaker ended his tale with a sentence which, even now, I remember - simplistic though it might now sound.

"Now I want to tell you the story of the Good Negro".

I think that, from that day (and I wish I could remember who told the story!) I realised that I had, quite unconsciously, held pre-conceived notions about other humans. I have tried very hard ever since to be aware of, and get rid of, any prejudices I might harbour about race, creed, ethnicity and colour.

Kalleh, For four years, I worked my way through an MBA in a Jesuit university program, and that ethical, intellectual, and also caring tone carried through even to the graduate program at night on a satellite campus! Of course, they were also totally nutso about basketball, this being St. Joe's and the year of Jameer Nelson. The only actual priest I met during that time was the president of the university. All of the other faculty I met were lay teachers.

I had heard of the Jesuits' being an intellectual order before that, but have never in my life encountered the "sly" or "crafty" associations. Possibly the Jesuits historically have found it necessary to be sly and crafty in their dealings with the Pope, as they have often been on the outs with the more mainstream and conservative factions within the church.

Wordmatic

We had a dear family friend when I was growing up who was a Jesuit priest (he had been an asst parish priest in my teen years while he was earning a PhD at the local U.) He was always able to re-interpret rigid canonical law in a way which made intellectual sense-- and was not afraid to bend the rules. For example, my mother was technically disallowed from communion by pre-1980's canon law, due to an early marriage and divorce which did not occur in the Catholic church. Our friend would bring communion over to the house for her.

Our friend was able to come to NYC to baptise my firstborn, as a guest-priest at the local parish. I told him ahead of time that I wanted one of my brothers to be godfather-- in my mixed family of origin, the girls converted to Catholicism; the boys attended mass but never got around to converting. He advised me that my brother was in every important way a Catholic who would make a good godfather, but suggested delicately that I not draw this aberration to the attention of the local priest, who might not understand our point of view.

I believe you have here a couple of examples of 'sly' or 'crafty' practice, per old papist thinking from the days when the Jesuits were out of favor. Sadly, my experience has been short on priests with judicious intelligence; far more commonly I find petty bureaucrats.

Still, I wonder where that "sly" and "crafty" (even "deceptive") connotation came from. There must be some reason for it.

Now you got me curious,Kalleh, so I've been reading up on it. I withdraw what I said above about a period when the Jesuits were out of favor with the Popes. I knew there was a time when they were banned from many European countries, but historians apparently now agree that was about 18thc. nationalism vs. papacy-- politics, not religion.

Slate (again!) has a bit of enlightenment on the use of the word 'jesuitical' and contrasts it to 'Talmudic'. Reference is made to 17th-c. misuse of the theological practice called 'casuistry'. Dictionary etymologies all seem to point to the 17thc., which supports this, but there were no footnotes.

I found far more historical detail in a Catholic publication. Pretty much everybody points the finger at Blaise Pascal's Lettres of the 1650's, which, in support of the Jansenists against the Catholics, scathingly reported on the 'lax casuistry' being practised by Jesuit priests in order to absolve kings, aristocrats etc of scandalous behavior. The Jesuits were singled out because they were formed just before the Protestant Reformation; they reported directly to the Pope and dedicated themselves to containing the spread of Protestantism.

I withdraw what I said above about a period when the Jesuits were out of favor with the Popes.

Though it was mainly for political (territorial) reasons, the Society of Jesus was suppressed in all Catholic countries by a Papal bull, Dominus ac Redemptor, issued by Clement XIV on 22 July 1773. There is more info online here.

Those are great links, Bethree and Z. Thank you! I learned a lot.

Having taught in a Jesuit University, I find this discussion fascinating. I had also taught for a few years in a Vincentian university (DePaul), and I found the latter much more flexible and "lax" than the Jesuits. Therefore, I find the discussion of "lax casuistry" of the Jesuits interesting, and contrary to what I'd experienced at one university. I suspect my experience was more due to the particular university than to being Jesuit, though.

I loved this distinction between Jesuitical and Tamudic from your Slate link, Bethree:

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In any event, the roots of "Talmudic" meaning "excessively hairsplitting scholarship" are not difficult to discern. Let's get down to cases. Recently my town passed an ordinance prohibiting the hunting of deer. Challenging this at Town Meeting, the hunting lobby pointed to the placement of certain commas in the statute that seemed to hold open the possibility of hunting deer with bows and arrows. The debate that raged for an hour over these commas was essentially Talmudic.

In subsequent discussion, the hunting enthusiasts asserted that their interest in the matter had little to do with the pleasure of hunting. Rather, they said, it involved a desire to protect the town from the scourge of Lyme disease. This tack was essentially Jesuitical.

I hadn't heard of Slate before, but I will have to check it out; it has some excellent information.

Casuistry - Context creates the difference between necessary, detailed examination, say of a surgery that results in unexpected death versus the application of the most minute degree of logic to - an opinion voiced by someone in a conversation or speech. The first is appropriate - the second done by someone trying to impress people with how smart they are. Which usually serves to prove just how insecure they are.

Thanks for reviving this thread, and welcome to the nuthouse!

I agree, tom. Or is it fran? Or is it pat?

Welcome to Wordcraft. Check your private messages.