Have any of you heard of the word "abaculo"? I was workshopping this limerick of Richard's on OEDILF, and when I put it in Onelook, it didn't exist. Then I put it in Google, and it came up as the OEDILF limerick, as someone's name in a journal, and as a foreign word, though I couldn't find a translation.

Is this a word? Does anyone have access to the OED? We haven't looked it up there. It had appeared on the OEDILF word list with a definition that was similar to this:

The policy known as abaculo
Is the use of strong force just to try to grow
A country's own might
(Regardless of right)

It seems to be Spanish version of the Latin word abaculus (dim. of abacus 'tile; gaming-board; flat square stone'). It's a small cube of glass or colored stone used in mosaics. It could be an obscure architectural term, I suppose.

Interesting, jheem. So, it has nothing to do with a policy where a country tries to grow its armed forces?

I wonder how that definition got into the OEDILF words to define. Could it be close to a word that means that?

I'm really not sure what it means in English if anything. Sorry. Maybe it's another e-word.

Well, I certainly didn't imagine the definition, though I might have misspelt the word when I transcribed it. But it must have started with "a" since the project is only doing the a-words. Unless there's a way of going back to the archived files of that time we're stuck.

Yes, there is a way to go back to the archived files. Anyone can do that by merely putting OEDILF into our search function. It will pull up the entire OEDILF forum.

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Here is the first link I found, and here is the second. It doesn't help much, does it? Can you find more when you search?

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Richard, if you click one of those links above, you can get into that whole OEDILF forum. It has not been blocked, just archived since OEDILF has their own site now. Anyway, if you go there to words needing definitions, "abaculo" isn't there. I am not sure where you got it, but it wasn't from here.

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jheem, this is what someone posted on OEDILF. Any idea about this? Tinman, are you here? Could you see if it is in the OED?

"I have abaculo in my 1936 Webster's international Dictionary, second edition, p.1. Literally, by means of the rod;—said of an argument, dispute, or the like, in which an appeal is made to force rather than to reason."

Also, here is what Steve Ngai has said:

"Check out '(argumentum) ad baculum.'

If your claim about Spanish is true, then most likely the Spanish version is indeed 'a baculo,' which seems to have been conflated here into one word.

However, it is conceivable also that this is an equally valid Latin phrase. 'ad baculum,' the more common version of the phrase, means 'for the staff,' but 'a baculo' does mean 'from the staff.' All of the classic fallacies were phrased 'argumentum ad ___,' so I think the ad-names took preference over any other forms that existed. Sort of like a box set."

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quote:

I am not sure where you got it, but it wasn't from here.

It was in the OEDILF words list.

Well, Kalleh, a baculo is not the same thing as abaculo. They're two different terms. I looked around for a baculo on the web and discovered it's part of a larger phrase: a baculo ad angulum usually translated (in a religious context) as 'from beam to shuttle' and means literally 'from the staff to the corner'. (Baculum means a 'staff, rod, or support' and angulus means a 'corner, nook'.) It's related to the logical term argumentum baculinum 'argument of the sceptre' which in turn must be related to argumentum ad baculum. The word baculinum does not occur in Classical Latin and is suggested by one French web page as being a macaronic word, i.e., a back-formation into Latin from Italian (or some other Romance language). Other than the raw translation for the phrase, the other occurrences I found are in a sermon. Not much help.

Considering the modern biological meaning of baculum, (penis bone) its use in a religious sense is somewhat amusing. Religious orgies, perhaps? Argumentum ad baculum might be a philosophical discourse on seduction!

Just found another translation of a baculo ad angulum in German: 'vom Stock (Dreieckseite) auf den Winkel (schließen', 'from the staff (side of a triangle) to the corner'. So, it sounds like a geomtrical saying. The angle a is opposite the line (side) AB on a triangle ABC. Not sure what it could mean, but just thought I'd offer it up to the gods semantic.

jheem refers to argumentum ad baculum.

You'll find that form of argument discussed in Fallacy Files and in The Logical Fallacies, two sites I relied upon in our Terms of Illogic thread last year.

THEY HAVE BONES?????

Yes, many animals do. In the "Winklepicker" Bluffing Game I used the term in my daffynition, and only Haberdasher seemed to be aware it its meaning, suggesting that it might be a good term for discussion. So, in a most roundabout way, here we are!

quote:

It was in the OEDILF words list.

Shu reminded me that when OEDILF was on wordcraft, after the words were limericked, they were taken off that list. That must have been what happened.

I just want to be clear, though. The reason the OEDILF forum here was closed down was because CJ started his own site. We archived the OEDILF forum about a month or so after CJ's site was started because there was no use for it. However, nothing has ever been deleted from it. Further, it is easily accessed by anyone by just searching for OEDILF here. You will then pull up that forum and anything that had ever been posted there.

My understanding was that CJ's list had come from the OED. I just checked our library's OED (1989), and abaculo is not there.

jheem, thanks so much for all your research. I will inform OEDILF.

THEY HAVE BONES?

Only some mammals, dogs being the most common. A friend of mine had a raccoon baculum necklace. See here for more info.

You're welcome, Kalleh.

A friend of mine had a raccoon baculum necklace.
Ohhhh...I think I'd pass on that necklace! Interesting, I had no idea that some animals had a penis bone!

Ahhh...this thread has taken a strange turn, and I almost hate to switch back to the original topic! However, please bear with me on a less fun subject. Even though Carol from the OEDILF found abaculo in her dictionary (strange, huh?), Steve Ngai from there thinks the original word was ad baculum. As he says, that definition is really what was implied in the limerick. I feel confident that was the original word, probably not transcribed accurately.

Okay, back to penises! [BTW, another piece of information on penis...did you know the plural can also be penes?]

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another piece of information on penis...did you know the plural can also be penes?

Umm - isn't that a type of pasta? I'll have my with alfredo sauce, thanks.

Even though Carol from the OEDILF found abaculo in her dictionary (strange, huh?), Steve Ngai from there thinks the original word was ad baculum. As he says, that definition is really what was implied in the limerick. I feel confident that was the original word, probably not transcribed accurately.

Which begs the questions:

a. What dictionary does Carol have?

b. Since a baculo is a synonym for argumentum ad baculum and argumentum baculinum, why not go with abaculo as well as the other two? Or are synonyms being excluded for some lexicographical reason?

BTW, another piece of information on penis...did you know the plural can also be penes?

And penis originally meant tail in Latin, and, in the interests of equal time, the fancy-schmancy classical plural of clitoris may be clitorides.

And, Italian penne is already the plural of penna 'feather, quill pen'. Saying pennes is like saying spaghettis or raviolis, funny, and I personally don't find much wrong with it, but technically incorrect.

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Carol's is the 1936 Webster's international Dictionary, second edition, p.1.

Well, do I feel like a dunce! I thought abaculo in fact isn't a word. Now you are saying it is a word...a synonym for argumentum ad baculum and argumentum baculinum? Or, do you mean a baculo?

Or, do you mean a baculo?

I meant a baculo, but if it's listed as one word in Webster's, I guess I can go along with it ...

Well, thank you everyone. If we can be sure about the meaning (and I'd like to take a dekko at that Webster's) then I can look at sorting out the limerick - which needs a deal of work.

Eureka! Looked it up in the Webster's Third New International Dictionary: Unabridged (1963/2002), and it's Latin, two words: a baculo "by means of the rod—used of an argument appealing to force rather than reason".

I knew it wasn't really a word! As it turned out, Richard withdrew his limerick (at least I can't find it, Richard), but Carol submitted another because it was in her Webster's Second (I believe) New International Dictionary.

And I'm sure you get baculum from the same - ahem - root. Now what kind of appeal would THAT be!?!?

I've not withdrawn the limerick so far as I can recall - it's probably just dropped out of sight. If it turns up then at least I know know what the real word is (and it's not a word but a phrase!)

Well, it's a two word term that's found in an unabridged English dictionary. Baculum and baculo are the same word, just in different cases. (The same sort of thing in English would be whether books is a different word from book.) Argumentum ad baculum means 'argument to the stick', whereas a baculo means 'with a stick'. This shows how certain prepositions govern different cases in Latin, or other languages with prepositions and cases.

[Addendum]

Come to think of it, book vs books isn't exactly parallel. The -s in English is a plural marker not a sign of case, which doesn't much exist anymore. Closer would be whether I and me are different words. except the only examples of case left in the English pronominal system are irregular. In Latin, given a second declension, neuter noun like baculum 'stick, vlub', and knowledge of the proper paradigm, one can decline the noun in its five cases and two numbers.

I checked "abaculo" out today in the second edition of Webster's International Dictionary, and it is not there.

BTW, here is the current limerick on "abaculo" that has been approved on OEDILF. According to your discussion, Zmj, it is just plain wrong, correct? Shouldn't the definition merely be "with a stick?"

If your ethics are spotty as maculo-
Papular rash, learn from Draculo:
Folks won't notice a spot
If you beat them a lot.
Rule with fear, wield the rod, use abaculo.
(uh-BAK-yoo-lo). Abaculo is a political policy popularized by fascist governments, but practiced in many cultures and periods of world history. Maculopapular rash features red, raised spots on skin or mucous membranes, and is associated with infection or trauma. Draculo is the genus name for ray-finned, spotted, bottom-feeder fish with long, rod-like tails with which they protect themselves and also use as rudders for swimming. Draculo pogognathus (bearded-jaw dragonet) is a marine fish of Hawaii.

Frankly I think it's a word/phrase that might just as well not be defined, such is its rarity. But that's up to CJ, of course.