I found that we've only briefly mentioned Ojibwe on this board once. For some reason, I thought we had discussed its revival before.

A few days ago there was a Chicago Tribune article about the revival of the Ojibwe language, a native American language. We've often talked here about how anything can be translated from one language to another, and I thought this perspective on that was interesting:

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But language is the thread that keeps culture together," said Wiese. "Language is woven into our brains and psyches and memories. Today when we say the word "medicine" in English, we think Walgreens. But in Ojibwe, the word is "midewin" (pronounced ma-DAY-win), meaning 'from the earth.' It's the healing that takes place directly from mother earth.

"That seems like a minor detail, a definition of a word, but when you look at how it means that medicine isn't just something from a pill or a bottle but from a cornucopia of plants from the Creator, it makes a difference in the way you see it, feel it and remember it."

This really is a fallacious argument. The etymology of a word, in English or in another language, has no real bearing on its current use.

Our word "medicine" (which bears more than a passing resemblance) ultimately derives via meditation from the PIE base *med- "to measure, limit, consider, advise". We don't think of that, any more than speakers of Ojibwe are likely to do.

Similarly "decimate" used to mean to "kill one-tenth" but the meaning has changed to "kill a large number (of)". "Educate" meant "to draw out" as it was thought that knowledge was innate. There are thousands of other words in English where the meanings have changed over the years; why should Ojibwe be any different?

I was going to say that, though probably less eloquently.

midewin

I'm not even sure he got the etymology right. See [url= midewin]link[/url] on midewin. Also an old ethnographic report (link). Medicine men are often called shamans these days.

[Addendum: I looked through an online Ojibwe-English dictionary (which is always a dangerous thing with a language one is unfamiliar with) and found multiple words for medicine. It did lead to the more common spelling of Midewiwin and an article on it in Wikipedia (link]). Seems Midewiwin was a religion more than medicine as a discipline. Interesting that the word medicine in English is both the drugs you take and the practice itself. Not so in Ojibwe. Also the root mide is traced to 'mysterous'.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

In French, un medicin is a physician. I don't think of Walgreen's when I see the word, and I think in Nahuatl, not Ojibwe.

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Originally posted by BobHale:
I was going to say that, though probably less eloquently.

Eloquent? Moi?

Mark Abley said similar things in his book Spoken Here.

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Abley listens to a Mohawk speaker talking about the word KA'NIKONRIIO, "righteousness." The speaker says "You have different words. Something that is nice. Something coming very close to -- sometimes used as a word for -- law. The fact of KA'NIKONRIIO is also -- beautiful. Or good. So goodness and the law are the same." Abley muses "I had the impression that a three-hour philosophy seminar had just been compressed into a couple of minutes."

I like McWhorter's response.

Well, I know we've debated this here before. I see your and McWhorter's points...to a point. I will always wonder what it would be like to speak English as a second language, and none of us, nor McWhorter, will ever understand that context. I know that my Chinese friend, who is amazingly smart, in language as well as science, thinks that there are words in Chinese that simply can't be translated correctly into English.

So, I believe all of you 98%. But there's that niggling doubt I still have.

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
I know that my Chinese friend, who is amazingly smart, in language as well as science, thinks that there are words in Chinese that simply can't be translated correctly into English.

And I just don't believe it. I've never heard of any case of a word that just can't be translated.

I think I've asked before, but what words are they?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: goofy,

You have and so has z. I've asked her (by email), and she didn't respond to that question. When I see her in person, I will see what I can learn. I also asked her to join Wordcraft, but she hasn't so far. I think the perspective from someone who has been there would be most helpful.

I also have a Chinese friend, so I'll ask him what he thinks. Since we seem hard-wired with the same emotions world-wide, I can't imagine our having terms that defy translation, though some languages say certain things more succinctly than others.

I can see how that might be possible. Almost certainly in some countries there are conditions or traditions that don't exist in other nations. Therefore, while a word for that condition or tradition could be translated into your language, it might be that you would have to spend years studying or experiencing the culture in order to fully understand its meaning.

Wordmatic

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it might be that you would have to spend years studying or experiencing the culture in order to fully understand its meaning.

That is not to say that a translation is impossible though; simply that in some cases it is hard.

translation

I suppose (and have suggested before) that it hinges on what one means by translation. Mostly, it seems to mean that there is no one-to-one correspondence between a single word in the source language and a single word in the target language that covers the denotation and well as all connotations. With that meaning of translation, translation in itself is impossible. But, seriously, ask them if there are any English words that cannot be translated into Chinese. I doubt that your friends will admit to any. It's their native language that is special in this way. Then, tell them not to bother trying to explain their unproven (and ultimately unprovable) assertion, as you cannot understand what they say, because they are speaking Chinese using English words, none of which correspond to how you speak English with English words (which words cannot be translated into Chinese).

Exactly, Zm.

In some documents I've seen long translator's footnotes explaining why a single-word translation doesn't suffice to convey the nuances of a particular foreign-langusge word. That is of course part of the translation.

While I agree with z and arnie, I have to side with Kalleh to a point. For example, Kalleh's favorite word, schadenfreude, seems to have more emotional impact to me than does "joy taken in the suffering of others." The latter walks around the cerebrum; the former punches the gut.

Some while ago I asked my French friend about the word translated, "tame" in The Little Prince. She averred that the French word, apprivoiser, had nuances that the English "tame" didn't have, thus changing "tame" to "lame" by comparison.

Another issue: Many multi-lingual people, when speaking to other multi-lingual people, use a mishmash of languages in conversation, choosing whichever one comes to mind as being the right one to express a given idea. What's up with that?

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Originally posted by Geoff:
While I agree with z and arnie, I have to side with Kalleh to a point. For example, Kalleh's favorite word, schadenfreude, seems to have more emotional impact to me than does "joy taken in the suffering of others." The latter walks around the cerebrum; the former punches the gut.

Which might be one reason why English borrowed the word "schadenfreude" from German. Certainly single words can have more impact than phrases (and vice versa), but that has nothing to do with whether a word can be translated.

It's true that apprivoiser doesn't just mean "tame". It means "civilize, domesticate, make sociable".

Switching between languages is called code-switching. It's not just using whichever language comes to mind, it depends on the subject of conversation, social differences between the speakers, etc. I don't know what it can tell us about translation.

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But, seriously, ask them if there are any English words that cannot be translated into Chinese. I doubt that your friends will admit to any. It's their native language that is special in this way. Then, tell them not to bother trying to explain their unproven (and ultimately unprovable) assertion, as you cannot understand what they say, because they are speaking Chinese using English words, none of which correspond to how you speak English with English words (which words cannot be translated into Chinese).

Point taken. And I do realize we've discussed this before. I just find it a fascinating subject, but maybe I should let it go.

I just find it a fascinating subject,

I never said that translation was not. There's even a an academic field called translation studies (some books of which I have suggested in the Books threads). Choosing the right word for an utterance is different than choosing a good or appropriate one. The former is more a matter of semantics, while the latter is more about pragmatics (or usage). The rarer a word, say like epicaricacy, or even its more well known sibling, schadenfreude, the less likely it is your communication will be understood by a listener without those lexical items in their vocabulary. Using the periphrasis, the act of taking delight in another's misfortune is more likely to be understood by more English speakers.

The bit about translating a common word in the source language by one in the target language is that you may loose all sorts of connotations. As goofy suggests, one trick translators use is to just use the foreign word, usually with a lengthy note on it when first used (or in the preface) People do not come with a hardwired vocabulary (at least I know of nobody who has suggested that), so a word's connotations must be learned other speakers. There's nothing that precludes having to explain what some word really means, even if it takes more than a footnote or an aside, even if it takes a whole book. I even know of words in English where the meaning it has for me is widely divergent from other speakers: words like grammar, myth, logos, etc.

but maybe I should let it go.

As with your e-word advocacy, you ought to do what you think right.

It isn't just a translation problem because the same thing happens just as much between speakers of the same language from different backgrounds.

Let me give an example. As a UK resident the phrase "council house" has a very specific meaning which may not be readily apparent to US residents. A "council house" is a house in which you live as a tenant where the local government is your landlord. As such it is akin to what Americans call (I think) "social housing". But that is not a sufficient translation because while I know what I mean when I say "council house" and you know what you mean by "social housing" the social connotations of the two terms are entirely different.

Without describing the history of council housing in the UK and all the various associated social factors I can't adequately explain what the sentence "He lives in a council house." means. Indeed depending on who said it and the intonation it could mean all sorts of different things.

If that's the difficulty between people speaking the same language, is it any wonder that people speaking different languages find translation difficult.

"council house"

I had not heard the term social housing before. I've always heard it referred to as public housing in the States, or more pejoratively the projects. I did know a little bit about council housing, but that's because I've watched a bunch of British movies and TV shows.

There's also subsidized housing, the new euphamism for "The Projects."

I understand that the term has pejorative overtones in the US but, some rather unpleasant occasional newspaper commentary aside it carries no such overtones here.

Do people live in council housing because it is, as we would say here, low-income housing, or because there isn't a large enough private rental market, or because they can't get a lease because of their personal history (crime, debts, etc.) or what?

quote:

Originally posted by neveu:
Do people live in council housing because it is, as we would say here, low-income housing, or because there isn't a large enough private rental market, or because they can't get a lease because of their personal history (crime, debts, etc.) or what?

Yes. All three and more.

Is Buckingham Palace considered "council housing"?

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I had not heard the term social housing before. I've always heard it referred to as public housing in the States, or more pejoratively the projects.

Interesting that z thought of it as public housing or the "projects" (really a bad connotation in Chicago!). I was thinking he meant co-ops, which are more like Israel's Kibbutzim, though perhaps not as systematic.

Another concept we've talked about here, perhaps not related to translation (?), is how different cultures articulate romantic opposite sex friends of people who live together. For awhile a friend was talking about his partner and I automatically assumed he was gay, and that wasn't the case at all. He was talking about his live-in girlfriend.

Does council housing have nothing but negative connotations?

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Does council housing have nothing but negative connotations?

In my experience, yes. And it will knock thousands off the price of an otherwise desirable house if it backs onto a "council estate".

It seems to be a fact that those who live in council housing (which they do not own and for which they pay far less than a commercial rent) sometimes have little pride in the properties they occupy or the surroundings in which they live. I suspect it is a fact of human existence that we do not put a very high value on things we get too cheaply.

A few years ago, legislation was introduced that allowed council tenants to buy their properties at discounted prices, the hope being that owners would be more caring than tenants. I believe results of this initiative have been generally positive, although some tenants did make excessive profit by buying their council houses at the discounted price and then selling at a commercial price.

Richard is coming at this from what I like to call the "the Daily Mail perspective". Council housing, for the vast majority of people here, doesn't carry any pejorative connotations.

I am one of the people who bought his council house. Almost all of my family and relatives live in council houses. Many of my friends live in council houses. They all pay rents which are the same as those paid to privately owned housing associations - the difference being that that money is used to pay for services and maintenance of the housing rather than to line someone's pockets so council houses are often better maintained than private ones. They have as much or as little pride in their homes as anyone else (which is to say that just like the wealthy some do and some don't, the difference here being that they don't pay cleaners to have pride for them.)

Council housing was and is a way to provide good standard accommodation for everyone at a price that can be afforded by those who don't earn bankers' incomes. In this country it's a way of life. My point was that, a few people notwithstanding, there isn't the pejorative connotation here.

With regard to the sale of council house. We bought ours at the start of the eighties and I wish we hadn't. We still live in it but it's old and because as soon as you sign the council maintenance stops it's in need of new roofing, new guttering, a rewire, some internal plumbing maintenance and a new outside outflow from the upstairs toilet. This will cost me thousands all of which would be paid for by the council if this were still a council house.

I just remembered, there's another kind of housing here in the States, called Section 8 housing. It's not exactly public housing as the buildings are owned privately, but the Federal government pays part of the rent for the tenants.

Right, z, and they get that housing ofter being discharged from the military due to mental instability: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_8_%28military%29

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Richard is coming at this from what I like to call the "the Daily Mail perspective". Council housing, for the vast majority of people here, doesn't carry any pejorative connotations.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "here".

Where I live it is a fact that the council housing estates often have a negative effect on private houses in the vicinity. It is also a fact that most of the people who live in my part of the UK do not earn bank executives' incomes - although a fair number earn bank clerks' incomes.

Returning to the linguistic point, Richard has demonstrated it perfectly. Clearly the words "council house" mean something entirely different to him than to me.

I think that the Wikipedia article on Council Houses - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_house - describes them very well; I disagree with little that has been written here.

Whether they be true or not, it is interesting that this article also suggests that the term has negative connotations, quote: ...The current position is that council housing is a more and more residualised and stigmatised sector, with the term 'council' increasingly used as a pejorative. Whereas in its early years, council housing was an acceptable option for much of the population, it is now increasingly an option only for those reliant on social security..."

Whether this is true in other parts of England I can't say, as I have only ever lived in the south.

This thread is a good example of what I was trying to convey above: i.e., that a word's meaning (its denotation or literal definition(s) as can be found in dictionaries) is not the same thing as its connotations (i.e., the emotional impact a word has). Denotations tend to be largely shared by all speakers of a dialect, but connotations can be downright idiosyncratic or only shared by smaller groups of speakers (e.g., class, profession, religion, etc.). As anybody who has studied (or taught) a foreign language knows, a word's connotations are the toughest bits to get, being as they are the interface between semantics and ethnography.

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff:
Right, z, and they get that housing ofter being discharged from the military due to mental instability: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_8_%28military%29

Section 8 housing isn't restricted to veterans. Section 8 (housing)

I think it was M*A*S*H joke.

being discharged from the military due to mental instability

Section 8, in the military context (link), is no longer in effect. It has been replaced by AR 635-200 (link).

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Section 8, in the military context (link), is no longer in effect.

Now! you tell me.

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Originally posted by Proofreader:

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Section 8, in the military context (link), is no longer in effect.

Now! you tell me.

At least you can stop wearing the dresses, now.

I don't mind the dresses. It's the thongs.

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i.e., that a word's meaning (its denotation or literal definition(s) as can be found in dictionaries) is not the same thing as its connotations (i.e., the emotional impact a word has). Denotations tend to be largely shared by all speakers of a dialect, but connotations can be downright idiosyncratic or only shared by smaller groups of speakers (e.g., class, profession, religion, etc.). As anybody who has studied (or taught) a foreign language knows, a word's connotations are the toughest bits to get, being as they are the interface between semantics and ethnography.

Good point, z. I think you've answered my question above about translation.