I haven't posted here about the 10:23 campaign because until now it hasn't had much in the way of language content. (It's a protest in the UK against the largest high street pharmacy selling homoeopathic remedies which are no more than sugar pills and which they themselves admit have no medicinal effect.) I have been following it on my blog.

However the excellent blogger Jack of Kent today has a good post that is language related, about how they are packaged. It's interesting that by packaging it exactly as a medicine and including dire warnings about keeping it away from children and not taking more than the stated dose they can create the illusion that it actually is a legitimate pharmacological product and hide the fact that it isn't in the smallest of the small print.
Stage magician Derren Brown applied much the same technique when he "predicted" the lottery numbers but crucially had to reveal his prediction AFTER they had been drawn for a load of made-up legal mumbo-jumbo that had exactly the form of real legal requirements without actually being such.

Interesting, Bob. Is Boots like Walgreens in the U.S.? That is, a popular pharmacy?

I completely agree about it seeming to be a medicine by using all the same verbiage as on real medicines.

I hadn't heard the word pillule before (The dictionary spelled it pilule), though I see that it's a small pill. I don't think we use it here.

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
Interesting, Bob. Is Boots like Walgreens in the U.S.? That is, a popular pharmacy?

I completely agree about it seeming to be a medicine by using all the same verbiage as on real medicines.

I hadn't heard the word pillule before (The dictionary spelled it pilule), though I see that it's a small pill. I don't think we use it here.

Boots is probably the largest pharmacy chain in the UK - although they sell just about everything these days. There are a number of pretenders to the Boots throne, but so far I believe that the Boots reign is still secure.

I'd never heard of the word "pillule" (or "pilule") until Spam became common. Now many of the medication Spams use the word to try to bypass Spam filters that have been set to reject emails with the word "pill" in them.

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Originally posted by Richard English:

Boots is probably the largest pharmacy chain in the UK - although they sell just about everything these days.

Including magic sugar pills. Their defence amounts to "we know they don't work but some of our customers think they do so we sell them".
Admitting that you are selling snake oil doesn't mean that you shouldn't be run out of town.

Their sales rely on them making the things look like medicine and they do that with the design of the boxes, the typefaces used, the actual wording, the use of stock phrases such as "KEEP OUT OF THE REACH OF CHILDREN" and "DO NOT EXCEED THE STATED DOSE".

It would be interesting to see if those same gullible customers still bought them and believed them if they were sold in a Smarties* tube and labelled prominently in red " THIS PRODUCT HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED TO HAVE NO MEDICAL VALUE.

(* I don't know if you get Smarties in the US. They are a small chewy candy in various colours that are sold in a distinctive colourful cardboard tube.)

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Many TV stations carry hour-long "infomercials" that tout dubious products almost always for "$19.95" -- and if you call within the next ten minutes they'll send two useless products.

One of the more egregious offerings is foisted on us by a convicted con man who has been prohibited by law from selling his snake oil products. However, he has stumbled on a First Amendment protection. He offers a book which he claims has a "cure" for EVERY disease known to man. This obvious fraudulent impossibility is protected by the "free speech" clause, according to his lawyer, and he's successfully pushing the book's sale.

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Including magic sugar pills. Their defence amounts to "we know they don't work but some of our customers think they do so we sell them".
Admitting that you are selling snake oil doesn't mean that you shouldn't be run out of town.

Having said which, homeopathic medicines do have a large number of supporters who believe fervently in their efficacy. If Boots didn't sell these products - which will at least meet the stringent safety standards, then those seeking homoepathic remedies would be forced to use other, less discerning, suppliers.

The Society of Homeopaths - http://www.homeopathy-soh.org - say about their treatments, "...Scientifically it can not yet be explained precisely how it works, but new research in biochemistry and quantum physics is going some way towards shedding light on the process...."

Incidentally, I don't believe in homeopathy and more than I believe in religion, astrology and Father Christmas - but those who do hold such beliefs ought to be allowed to indulge them proving their indulgence does not inconveniene others.

Incidentally, on a word-ralated aspect, why do you think the organisers of the protest, The Merseyside Skeptics Society, chose to use the US spelling of sceptics?

How can the protestors who overdosed be so sure that the products are harmless? Is there evidence on the 10:23 site that I'm missing?

Because they contain no active ingredient. They are sugar. Sugar is harmless.

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Originally posted by Richard English:

The Society of Homeopaths say about their treatments, "...Scientifically it can not yet be explained precisely how it works, but new research in biochemistry and quantum physics is going some way towards shedding light on the process...."

Because it doesn't. Study after study shows that in controlled trials it performs no better than placebo. Those studies are dismissed by homeopaths who do their own studies using no controlled methodologies and publish anecdotal evidence. To say that you can't test it unless you believe in it is to blame it on the fairies- see below.

If intelligent, well-educated people on a site such as this are prepared to lend credence to this stuff then I despair. There is no hope for the human race.

1) there is no scientific basis to the idea of similars (i.e. something that makes your headache can cure your headache)
2) there is none of the original substance left in the water after the twentieth dilution
3) there is no conceivable mechanism by which water can have a memory of substances that were once disolved in it (and just as well given how many people every drop of water on the planet has passed through)
4) the water is dripped onto sugar tablets and then evaporated off somehow transferring this magic memory up the sugar.

There is one of those Downfall Hitler Videos on the subject* in which Hitler finishes his rant in despair crying "let's tell them it's the f***ing fairies and they can't test it because the fairies are shy and won't cooperate".

People used to say that smoking was good for you. That didn't make it so.

(*Actually on chiropracters, but the point remains)

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A couple of book recommendations

Bad Science

Trick or Treatment

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there is no conceivable mechanism by which water can have a memory of substances that were once disolved in it

Otherwise winos would stop buying new bottles.

one of those Downfall Hitler Videos on the subject

Too funny. This is still one of my favorite memes. As for homeopathy, ah, well, people love to be suckered.

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If intelligent, well-educated people on a site such as this are prepared to lend credence to this stuff then I despair. There is no hope for the human race.

I didn't mean to suggest that I agreed with their statement; indeed, as I said later, I do not believe in homeopathy - any more than I believe in religion, astrology or Father Christmas. But millions of people buy religious artifacts, although they have no scientific basis of truth, and so believers in homeopathy might as well spend money on their own beliefs if they wish to.

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Originally posted by Richard English:

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If intelligent, well-educated people on a site such as this are prepared to lend credence to this stuff then I despair. There is no hope for the human race.

I didn't mean to suggest that I agreed with their statement; indeed, as I said later, I do not believe in homeopathy - any more than I believe in religion, astrology or Father Christmas. But millions of people buy religious artifacts, although they have no scientific basis of truth, and so believers in homeopathy might as well spend money on their own beliefs if they wish to.

I've adopted Ben Goldacre's mantra of "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that." as my own.

Of course homoeopathy in itself is harmless. A sugar pill isn't going to hurt anyone. The trouble is that people take it INSTEAD of proper medication. You can buy homoeopathic pills that allegedly prevent Malaria. People do. And then some get Malaria and some die. Of course some don't so that proves it works doesn't it?
I have known adults who have treated their children with these pills instead of consulting a doctor. It isn't simply a matter of wasting money on an ineffective product, it's doing it instead of getting an effective one. Of course, the truth is that most minor ailments get better on their own without treatment (which is one of the ways the homoeopaths convince people.)
However they don't only claim to treat minor illnesses. I did a google search for "what can homeopathy treat" and this was the first of two and a half million hits. Look at the list of things on it - Acne, Strokes, High Blood Pressure, Infertility, Ulcers: you name it they claim to treat it. Now imagine all those people NOT getting proper treatment.

Homepathy isn't just nonsense, it's dangerous nonsense.

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Of course homoeopathy in itself is harmless. A sugar pill isn't going to hurt anyone.

If you take it instead of something proven useful, it is.

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Originally posted by BobHale:
Because they contain no active ingredient. They are sugar. Sugar is harmless.

That's what the 10:23 site says, but the site doesn't provide any evidence. I just want to know how they know. According to this, the medicines are diluted to varying degrees. Surely the potency depends on what the medicine is and how much it is diluted. There's nothing about sugar.

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(* I don't know if you get Smarties in the US. They are a small chewy candy in various colours that are sold in a distinctive colourful cardboard tube.)

We do, and I like them.

Amazingly, I really haven't come across homeopathic medicine that much in my work in health care. I have worked a little with complementary medicine, which includes such treatments such as ginger to abate nausea; it's not that effective, but it can help. That's why ginger ale is sometimes helpful when you have gastritis.

However, I have heard a lot about quack medicine, which is when people receive useless treatments for ailments such as cancer. This can be disastrous and probably is similar to what you're talking about, Bob.

In the U.S. we have requirements when advertising medicines that there must be evidence that they do what the label says it will. Do you have the in the U.K. as well? If so, it's probably just the subtle things (like "keep out of reach of children") that aren't illegal but attract buyers.

While of course I'd not be for homeopathic medicine, given my career, I can't help but agree with goofy. It's not a good idea to take anything where you don't know for sure what the ingredients are.

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Originally posted by goofy:

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Originally posted by BobHale:
Because they contain no active ingredient. They are sugar. Sugar is harmless.

That's what the 10:23 site says, but the site doesn't provide any evidence. I just want to know how they know. According to this, the medicines are diluted to varying degrees. Surely the potency depends on what the medicine is and how much it is diluted. There's nothing about sugar.

You can either take do the maths yourself (any article on Avagadro's number will tell you how) or take my word that at a dilution called C30 which is the most common homoeopathic dilution, in order to have one single molecule of the original substance remaining you would need a sphere that had a radius of 95 million miles. Put another way, a sphere of water that if centred on the sun would stretch out past the Earth.
At a C56 dilution the water would fill the entire theoretical volume of the universe to get one molecule of the original substance. Both the books recommended above have the maths included.*
Homeopaths regularly prescribe C100 remedies which would require a volume of water that is billions upon billions of times bigger than they theoretical size of the Universe. Frankly I'd say the risk is negligible.

Or you could just go to youtube and watch the Video entitled "If homeopathy works I'll drink my own piss".

(and yes, I have also redone the calculation myself, I didn't take it on trust)

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A few years ago the Beeb ran a series on the various complementary therapies, Homeoapathy being one. The Homeopathists' hypothesis that the original solute in some way modifies the physical structure of the solvent was defended vigouously by a Homeopathy apologist, but the experiments the the Beeb ran, on the programme, showed that no such change occurred. And, as Bob has pointed out, it is highly unlikely that, at the dilutions used, even a single molecule of the solute remains in the solution.

I seem to recall that only acupuncture was found to have any genuine and repeatable results - but my memory could be faulty.

I confess that I'd never given much thought to the other effect that Bob mentioned - that reliance on a belief in an unproven treatment might thereby have adverse consequences since those relying on it might then fail to seek proven treatment. But that must be true. It's a bit relying on your lucky charm to keep you safe from traffic accidents, rather than bothering to take driving lessons (a common occurrence in some parts of the world I have visited).

Of course once you have passed the Avagadro limit (the dilution level at which none of the original substance remains) any subsequent dilution requires that the water that has already somehow been "altered" to remember the substance must then pass that memory on indefinitely to more water and more water after that.

The sugar pills come into it at the final stage where the water is dripped onto a sugar pill as a dispensing method and then evaporated off. If there were any of the original solute in it it would be left behind but as there isn't the water would then have to somehow pass the memory of the memory of the however many times memory onto the sugar.

Incidentally as the original solutes typically have molecules that are orders of magnitude larger than a water molecule the idea that the water can somehow take an imprint is implausible at best. As Ben Goldacre (author of Bad Science) puts it, it would be like trying to take the imprint of a sofa in a pea sized piece of putty.

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Originally posted by Richard English:
A few years ago the Beeb ran a series on the various complementary therapies, Homeoapathy being one. I seem to recall that only acupuncture was found to have any genuine and repeatable results - but my memory could be faulty.

The second book I recommended above is a comprehensive survey of alternative therapies. The conclusions are that accupuncture may have some slight benefits for certain types of conditions (muscular or neurological if memory serves); that herbal medicine can often have benefits though not to the extent that is usually claimed by the herbalists; that Traditional Chinese Medicine could potentially have some benefits in some cases but that the range of substances prescribed also includes some extremely toxic ones; that chiropracty might have some extremely limited value in muscular or bone-related conditions but not in ANY of the many things they claim (from infant colic to earache) and should NEVER be used with infants under any circumstances anyway as their musclature and skeletal strength cannot cope with the stresses.

All other therapies were found to have no effect at all beyond placebo and some were found to be actively dangerous.

Interestingly, snake oil, which is used as a synonym for quack medicines, may in fact have some benefits in giving relief for arthritis and joint pain.

Here's a stress-relieving method I found today which may qualify as homeopathic medicine.

Stress Management

Just in case you are having a rough day, here is a stress management technique that actually works -- and doesn't rely on habit-forming drugs.

Ready to give it a try? Just follow these simple steps:

1. Take a deep breath.

2. Picture yourself near a stream.

3. Hear the birds softly chirping in the cool mountain air.

4. Recall that no one knows your secret place.

5. You are in total seclusion from the hectic place called the world.

6. The soothing sound of a gentle waterfall in the distance fills the air with a cascade of serenity.

7. The water is crystal clear.

8. You can easily make out the face of the person you are holding underwater.

See? You're smiling already.

quote:

Originally posted by BobHale:
You can either take do the maths yourself (any article on Avagadro's number will tell you how) or take my word that at a dilution called C30 which is the most common homoeopathic dilution, in order to have one single molecule of the original substance remaining you would need a sphere that had a radius of 95 million miles. Put another way, a sphere of water that if centred on the sun would stretch out past the Earth.

I'll trust you on the math. I assume there are laws that the homeopathic companies must follow, so that if, for instance, the label says the product is C30, it really is C30?

Homeopathy is self-regulated which is to say completely unregulated. Your next question is probably how do I know that they dilute their "remedies".
I believe that many homoeopaths are sincere, sincerely deluded or sincerely mentally ill perhaps but sincere. As for the "cures" taken in the campaign they were bought from members of the Society of Homoeopaths and short of deliberate poisoning they were certainly what they purported to be but what they purport to be is ludicrous nonsense.

Incidentally...

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Originally posted by goofy:

I'll trust you on the math. I assume there are laws that the homeopathic companies must follow, so that if, for instance, the label says the product is C30, it really is C30?

Incidentally, as any dilution past the Avagadro limit (C12) is chemically identical (i.e. plain, unadulterated water) the numbers are by and large irrelevant.

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Originally posted by BobHale:
Homeopathy is self-regulated which is to say completely unregulated. Your next question is probably how do I know that they dilute their "remedies".
I believe that many homoeopaths are sincere, sincerely deluded or sincerely mentally ill perhaps but sincere.

Even so, it's disturbing that homeopathic products not only are useless if they contain what they are said to contain, but also may not even contain what they are said to contain.

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