Another question on OEDILF has arisen about one of my limericks. After going through some revisions with their talented Nan, we came up with this fun one:

Ablation's an int'resting word.
In medicine, often it's heard.
"Ablate!" said the surgeon.
"Her hormones are surgin'!"
"I'll cut out her gonads," he purred!

Now, the question is on the last line. It is Nan's contribution, and I love it. Generally, we like to keep the last line fun or whimsical, and I think we have done that. However, CJ and another person think it is creepy. CJ especially doesn't like L5 because male doctors already don't (in his opinion) respect women, and this just highlights that. I tried to link to that discussion, but I couldn't because you have to be signed in to read the workshopping.

What do you think? While I see L5 as funny and a bit whimsical, I am thinking of changing it. I don't want my limericks seen as "creepy!"

The L5 got changed in the first place because my previous one ("He removes the offense, undeterred.") was seen as "disappointing."

Note that I am married to a woman who considers cutting gonads to be "whimsical".

<wink>

Love you too, hon! I suspect that males would find this a bit more sensitive, and CJ's objection is based on that sense, notwithstanding his contortionist rationale.

Women have gonads? I keep lookin and can't see any!!!

It's difficult to see a woman's gonads, what with the way they're tucked up inside her abdomen. Gonads can be either testes or ovaries. You've been duped again by the patriarchal apparatus, CW. — "Right, we'll be arresting them next."

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jheem,

Shu, you very well be right on that analysis. Interestingly, Nan and I like the line, but it is 2 men who don't (CJ and the one who called it "creepy."

Women have gonads? I keep lookin and can't see any!!!

CW, at first when Nan suggested that L5, someone on OEDILF also thought that only men had gonads. However, jheem is right.

What do you think? While I see L5 as funny and a bit whimsical, I am thinking of changing it. I don't want my limericks seen as "creepy!"

I don't see it as creepy in any way, but I do see it as hostile. Couldn't tell you in which direction, or against whom, or what the motivation might be, but justaposition of [mutilating] surgery and the connotations of "purred" clearly reveal hostility to me.

Trust me. Uncle Sigmund knows. Even if Nan thought she meant to be whimsical.

Then, again...you are a man!

Yet, if too many of you are seeing it this way, gender bias or not, I want to change it since my name will be on it. Thanks, Hab.

But that's what I meant about not knowing the direction: against the surgeon or against the victim, completely unspecified, either target valid. Gender isn't relevant in this formulation.

P.S. Remember that conundrum based on the principle that most of us will assume the surgeon has to be male? 'Taint so any more, folks!

First of all, Hab, you have missed a recent discussion about that. I had said that about 50% of physicians are now female, though Hic, rightly, questioned the veracity of that statement. I, in fact, had meant that about 50% of the medical students are female. Big difference! I spent a little time tonight on Google to find what percent (in the U.S.) of physicians are female vs. male, but I couldn't find anything. I am guessing 30 - 70, but I don't know. I am sure my organization will have those statistics though, and I will try to get them.

From my personal experience as a nursing professor in several of Chicago's medical centers, I have come across a few women surgeons, but surely not many. Most of them were general surgeons. The specialties, such as thoracic surgeons, neurosurgeons, or orthopedic surgeons, lag behind in women.

However, I am completely giving up on that L5 now in that limerick. I need a new L5 because I do like the rest. Any ideas out there? Here were 2 suggestions of mine (plus the one above that Chris Doyle thought was disappointing):

His golf game has now been deferred.
or
The patient is not so assured.

Help??

Couldn't tell you in which direction, or against whom, or what the motivation might be,

To answer your question, Hab, here is Nan's explanation for L5:

"Purred" gives a tinge of the male M.D. gleefully controlling the sexuality of his female patient, which you may or may not want.

I often hear the phrase "he has a big brass pair", but what is the equivalent for women? Do we have brass ovaries???

As for L5 . . . what about:

Expenses will now be incurred.

Having just had the joy of ablation . . . I'm now dealing with the relief of insurance and frustration at its decline.

AHA!! How about:

Ablation's an int'resting word.
In medicine, often it's heard.
"Ablate!" said the surgeon.
"Her hormones are surgin'!"
Though drug therapy's often preferred.

A winner, if I do say so myself.

Part of my objection to this piece has to do with the fact that I have been a feminist for most of my adult life. Marches, rallies, womens' studies courses, the whole bit. While I can't recall the source at the moment, I do specifically remember reading that the wives of surgeons have an incredibly higher chance of undergoing a hysterectomy than the general female population for two reasons:

1.- Surgeons cut people up for a living and tend to see this as the primary way of dealing with medical situations, and

2.- It's still a very male-dominated society.

This piece, with the new line 5, addresses this. Hormone therapy is the safer and, in many cases, saner way to go and yet each year untold numbers of women go under the knife unnecessarily.

Also, one last note, I think Bill's comment that "'I'll cut out her gonads,' he purred!" was "creepy" was based on the fact that I can't read that line without seeing Bela Lugosi with a scalpel. Not exactly a warm cuddly image.

Heart-warming political stance aside, I think L5 sounds like it has an extra syllable. Is it just me?


Personally, I'm VERY glad the surgery is available, though. For some of us, the drug therapy is NOT a viable option, it's just a torturous delay.

I think L5 sounds like it has an extra syllable. Is it just me?
The meter is fine, CW, for L5. It should be read as: I'll cut out her gonads, he purred.

The trouble with CJ's suggestion is that it isn't accurate. Drugs aren't usually the answer. Ablative therapy is done for certain cancers when hormonal output aggravates the cancer. When I first wrote this (on wordcraft, way in the beginning of OEDILF), it was referring to the adrenal glands, and not the gonads. However, the workshoppers turned it into a gonadal limerick, thus L5, which I am about to axe.

CJ's and Bill's comments were troubling to me, so I brought the question here. However, Hab's "hostility" comment affected me the most. I no longer can live with that L5.

Yet, all along I have said to the objectors that this is just a limerick! Why everyone takes it so seriously is beyond me, especially when one looks at the history of limericks. Do we worry about "nymphomaniacal Jill's" (my favorite well-known limerick) vagina being in North Carolina or her breasts being in Brazil? We see that limerick as funny.

But, I respect all of the people who have questioned it, and therefore L5 is history.

What do you think of this:

Ablation's an int'resting word.
In medicine, often it's heard.
"Ablate!" said the surgeon.
"Her hormones are surgin'!"
"It looks like my golf's been deferred."

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

Hon, when CW said the fifth line had an extra syllable, she was talking about CJ's version of the fifth line, not your version.

Kalleh, if I understand this correctly, one editor changed your fifth line, another editor objected to the change, and a third editor thought something or other was disappointing.

"A camel," said somebody witty,
"Is a horse that was built by committee."
When many propose
To stick in their nose,
The result is not apt to be pretty.

Sounds like multiple cooks are fiddling with your broth.

The stress of that L5 would have been "but drug THERapy's OFten preFERRED" which, admittedly, takes a reading or two to figure out.

Yielding of course to Kalleh's medical expertise I would retract my L5 suggestion. If it's not accurate, it shouldn't be part of the piece. Then again, were I to hear a surgeon say "Ablate! Her hormones are surgin'!" I might well have doubts about his (or her) medical qualifications.

Especially considering the long history this piece has, I wouldn't be so quick to deep-six it. It seems like all it needs is a shorter term to replace "drug therapy's."

Yes, Hic. I would never say this on OEDILF, but it is a bit hard keeping up with all the workshoppers. I tried to clean up all the comments I had there 2 days ago, spending a lot of time, and lo and behold I had 30 more comments yesterday! The problem is that a couple will like it (the first person who workshopped "ablation" loved it), a couple will hate it, and then there are those in between. You then have to decide what to do.

One example is my limerick on "adjuvant therapy." Now, we went back and forth and back and forth, trying to get it perfect. Finally, it is quite nice, and CJ comes in with "is this really a word?" Well, I had done this limerick way back when, at a time when we had no real rules. So, I checked Onelook, and there were 8 citings for "adjuvant therapy," all in medical dictionaries. However, in the meantime dear Tsuwm may have saved me! On 10/10/04, his word of the day was adjuvant, defined in this way. So, I may now be able to save that limerick.

There must be a better way to workshop these limericks, especially when we have so many to do!

My new L5 doesn't work?

CJ's L5 works for me (as he shows) as far as the meter, though it may be a little awkward. But, the fact is, it isn't accurate. While surely a surgeon isn't going to be saying "Ablate! Her hormones are surgin'!", it is accurate. We aren't to be writing from medical records after all!

I do agree, though, that this limerick should be kept. We have worked too hard on it!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

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Originally posted by Hic et ubique:
Kalleh, if I understand this correctly, one editor changed your fifth line, another editor objected to the change, and a third editor thought something or other was disappointing... ...Sounds like multiple cooks are fiddling with your broth.

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As I believe any Wordcrafter/OEDILFer will agree, in almost every case where multiple cooks have fiddled with limericial broth, the result has been an improved taste. In some cases the improvement has been extraordinary especially in regards to those authors whose skills are not as sharpely honed as those of the workshoppers who came to their assistance. And even the most talented writers we have will occasionally be helped by someone less skillful than themselves. I consider Chris Doyle to be pretty much Tog Dog on the OEDILF site, not just for the outrageous quantity of his output but, far more important, for its mind-bogglingly high quality as well, and even Chris will admit that some of his best stuff was made just a bit better through workshopping.

That's just what supportive interaction among intelligent and creative individuals is all about. And, most important of all, this is why workshopping will always be key to The OEDILF project overall. It's not for the faint-hearted, maybe, and certainly not for any individual arrogant to think that his or her writing is perfect as is. But it is helpful and it is fun and it does work very, very well.

One last note though, so no one misunderstands - If a limerick undergoes 29 different changes throughout the workshopping process and the author prefers the original, that's how the piece will be. Writers' rights are always paramount and the author has the final say regarding how his or her piece will read.

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
Yes, Hic. I would _never_ say this on OEDILF, but it is a bit hard keeping up with all the workshoppers.

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Feel free to bring up this point but you won't be the first. You're very right, keeping up with the workshopping is getting more and more difficult. For those of you not familiar with the site, each member has an Activity Page with which to track his or her work. When someone makes a comment, an entry automatically pops up there. About 10 days ago, my Activity Page topped 700 entries! We're working on remedying this.

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One example is my limerick on "adjuvant therapy." Now, we went back and forth and back and forth, trying to get it perfect. Finally, it is quite nice, and CJ comes in with "is this really a word?"

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My suggestion was to change the Word Defined from "adjuvant" to "adjuvant therapy" which I'm glad to see you did. It's now the only "adjuvant therapy" limerick in the book and, for that matter, very probably in the world as well. Well done!

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I do agree, though, that this limerick should be kept. We have worked too hard on it!

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Excellent! Glad to hear it.

CJ, surely you have a point.

I just checked, and it was Chris Doyle who first said my original L5 was disappointing. That was after one workshopper said "cool" and another said "lovely." To be honest, they were probably too positive because Chris is right that L5 was disappointing. Chris's suggestion then was: "'Bye-bye, ovaries' can be inferred" or "Then ovary cutting occurred," neither of which I liked. That's when Nan gave her suggestion, and the rest is history!

In this particular limerick 7 people chimed in on the workshopping, and there were a total of 39 individual comments about it (including my replies). It looks like now someone has finally accepted my new L5, though there may be others who don't want it.

I am just saying that the time spent on that one limerick has been enormous. I only wish, at the beginning when Chris made his first remarks, that I would have just deleted this limerick then. The final version is hardly anything to write home about and not worth the time we have all taken on it.

One last point, and before I say this I want to say that most of the workshopping I have experienced has been excellent. However, there have been some suggestions where the meter is off or in some other ways it is downright inaccurate. That isn't often, but it does occur.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

> "not for any individual arrogant to think that his or her writing is perfect as is."

CJ, you and I can agree to disagree on the proper degree of editing. Granted that one can productively edit some of the people all of the time, and all of the people (even Chris Doyle!) some of the time. But from what Kallah says -- "7 people chimed in ... a total of 39 individual comments" -- you have too much side-stirring for my tastes.

In this my tastes obviously differ from yours, but that of course does not make me "an individual arrogant to think that his or her writing is perfect as is."

Feel free to bring up this point but you won't be the first.

Forums are funny. I didn't start posting on the OEDILF forum until later, and I am really not a part of the "group" at this point. I am more an outsider...which is fine because of time. I mainly stick to the write limericks section, and even that I have had to limit recently.

workshopping will always be key to The OEDILF project overall. It's not for the faint-hearted

I don't agree with that. While I really don't like it about myself, I guess I would have to admit that I am "faint-hearted" or sensitive. Yet, the workshopping has always been quite supportive, constructive and friendly. There was only one comment that I found to be inappropriate and out of line.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

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Originally posted by Hic et ubique:
But from what Kallah says -- "7 people chimed in ... a total of 39 individual comments" -- you have too much side-stirring for my tastes.

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I totally agree. Another feature we have is the "Call Attention" button. If one workshopper desires draw the attention of others to a particular limerick for whatever reason, he or she can summon the whole posse (at present, 19 and counting) by clicking on this button. This was done at least once in this case. The question of button abuse is one we're trying to deal with now but with 39 individual comments, I would estimate that Kalleh's limerick would rank in the upper 5% in this regard. The vast majority of limericks are going underworkshopped or not seen at all, largely because we're still new.

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In this my tastes obviously differ from yours, but that of course does not make me "an individual arrogant to think that his or her writing is perfect as is."

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You will note, please, that I was not specifically referring to any one person or persons when I said that. Haven't I always shown respect for the high quality of your writing? I wouldn't insult you by labeling you this way. You choose not to submit your limericks to our workshopping process and that's fine. But while I respect your decision, at the same time there's not a doubt in my mind that were you to do so, you would afterwards admit that at least a few of your pieces came through the process the better for it.

The door's always open.

a learning experience! In the past couple of months I have learned more on a wide variety of non-poetry-related topics (history, geology, advanced math [which I loathe, but still], mythology, microbiology, and a dozen more) than I learned in the entire preceding year altogether.

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I guess I would have to admit that I am "faint-hearted" or sensitive.

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And you're certainly not alone. I would never try to convince anyone that all our authors embrace the workshopping process with open arms and minds. A few actively resist it but, again, that's perfectly fine. Their name goes on their work so their say is the final word.

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Yet, the workshopping has always been quite supportive, constructive and friendly. There was only one comment that I found to be inappropriate and out of line.

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We are supportive, constructive, and friendly. We're also human so I guarrantee errors will be made.

Edited by Wordcrafter to delete discussions of promotions of OEDILF people to higher positions there, as that is more properly a subject for the OEDILF board.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: wordcrafter,

Perhaps my faint-heartedness has bubbled up. I actually thought my limerick was done with the "golf" line being accepted by 2 people whom I respect on OEDILF. However, then more comments began (there must be over 50 now). The final limerick may be:

Ablation's an int'resting word
For 'precision excision,' I've heard.
"Ablate!" said the surgeon.
"Her hormones are surgin'!
Her readings are simply absurd."

Shu suggested L5, and a couple on OEDILF crafted L2.

Still, it is hardly my limerick anymore, and I am hoping there is some way to give general credit to a limerick, without my taking credit. This was a limerick of collaboration!

Get out the champagne! "Ablation," after about 50 revisions, has finally been accepted on OEDILF! Now there are only how many limericks to go....???

Perhaps I should write a book on "Purring Gonads!"

The word "arrogant" was used above. I find my self musing thus:

• Is it arrogant to offer a person wholly unsolicited advice on how to improve himself?
• Is it arrogant to claim your advice is so good (after all, it will sometimes be on-target) that anyone who declines your offer is either thin-skinned or thinks he is perfect?

CJ said earlier that he "was not specifically referring to any one person." To the same degree, the above is not "specifically" referring to any particular person.

The following, though, is in part specific to CJ. In scenes of several movies (Working Girl; Coming to America, etc.) a fellow embarrasses his girlfriend by proposing to her in public, making it hard for her to say "no". That's crass – and it would be doubly crass if they'd already had a private conversation in which she told him "no".

Chris, as you know I opted not to join your board, for my own reasons. But I didn't announce it to the public, as you have now done. Shouldn't I be able to make that choice without presenting my reasons to the public? If you want to discuss with me, please do so only privately. Thank you.

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Originally posted by Caterwauller:
Do we have brass ovaries???

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Women With Brass Ovaries

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No, they are not the result of some alien mutation. Brass Ovaries refers to women (occasionally a man) who some how distinguish themselves from the pack. Stories that may be plucked from the front, middle and back sections of various newspapers. These note worthy individuals exemplify the characteristics of women who live life to the fullest. They meet challenges head on. Flourish from what would appear to be hostile, stagnant or stale environments.

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BRASS OVARIES

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If gutsy men have "Brass Balls," what do gutsy woman have? Hmmm? With the launch of her new business, Linda Samis has given women their very own symbol of recognition -- Brass Ovaries.

Brass Ovaries is a line of products (jewellery, toiletries, clothing, etc.) that are intended to be a symbol of a woman’s perseverance, commitment and success. Their creator says that "Women don’t give themselves enough credit. This is recognizing you’ve matured. You’re getting the fact that nobody did anything to you. You’re a willing participant in life. When you realize that, you’ve earned your Brass Ovaries.

The idea for Brass Ovaries actually came about while Linda was having coffee with a friend in early 1999. Since then, the ideas just keep on coming. She tells us that we can expect Brass Ovaries lingerie, bed linens and cruises in the upcoming year.

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Tinman

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Wow - another thing I've never realized before. You all are so full of good knowledge! Thanks, Tinny!

You all are so full of good knowledge!

Right your are, CW. In fact way back in 2003 we had a great thread on limericks where we wrote limericks about each other, and here was Bob's about Tinman: You also might enjoy the rest of the thread. We had fun!

Fabulous! I'll need to take some time and explore that thread further! Thanks!

What other threads should I explore?

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Originally posted by Hic et ubique:
Chris, as you know I opted not to join your board, for my own reasons. But I didn't announce it to the public, as you have now done.

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This is my error. I had thought that this was widely known and if revealing it in this way has resulted in any embarrassment (or any other negative response) for you, I apologize.

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Originally posted by Hic et ubique:
The word "arrogant" was used above. I find my self musing thus: Is it arrogant to offer a person wholly unsolicited advice on how to improve himself?

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No, not at all. (And, by the way, "myself" is one word.)

Bottom line? Don't sweat the small stuff, Hic. I'm just funnin' ya.