Who wrote, "There'll be other furrows for his plow?" I thought it was in Hamlet, but I can't find it. Helllllp!

There'll be other furrows for his plow

It's in Sophocles' Antigone (569). Creon says of his son: "There are other fields for him to plow" (link).

Wow. You're good! Interesting that he used "plough." I find it so interesting how quotations are often misunderstood and/or not attributed correctly. I had always thought that Churchill had really said, "...up with which I will not put." But in another thread that was debunked. Link

Interesting that he used "plough."

Well, Sophocles used neither plow or plough, he used a Greek word. The translation I pointed to just happened to be British. I've always liked the -ough ending, though I use the standard US spelling when writing.

No doubt pronounced, "pluff, as in "enough."

Normally I use American verbiage, such as I go to "the" university, and not "to university," And, yet, I usually write "plough." Interesting how those habits are built.

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
Normally I use American verbiage, such as I go to "the" university, and not "to university,"

You mentioned this in the chat session, and I'm curious about the usage. To me, the two phrases have different meanings.

"I am going to the university" means that I am travelling to a particular university, for some unspecified purpose (e.g. to deliver some equipment).
"I am going to university" means that I am attending some unspecified university, for the particular purpose of studying there.

There's a similar difference for me between "at the university" and "at university". The first means "at a particular university (for some unspecified purpose)", whereas the second means "at the university that I am attending or attended as a student". So you might say "I gave a talk at the university" (maybe as a visiting speaker), but "I studied linguistics at university".

I'd make the same distinctions with other educational institutions, e.g. "to/at (the) school", "to/at (the) college".

There's also the difference in the way we use "hospital". "I'm in hospital" to us would mean that I am in bed being looked after by doctors and nurses because of some illness or whatever. "I'm in the hosital" means that I'm in the actual building, but I might be visiting, attending an out-patients' clinic, or just looking round.

The UK distinctions make sense to me. Curious that we non-English speakers don't follow that pattern in American.

Curious indeed. Do all US speakers follow the same usage? What I don't understand is how you can possibly use "to the university" in a context where no specific university has been mentioned, or at least implied.

For example: "Next year I plan to go to university" (but I haven't settled on which one yet). In my usage, you couldn't use "to the university" in that sentence without changing the meaning; it would imply that there was only one university that the speaker and listener were familiar with (such as the local one).

Or "Where did you go to university?" If I substituted "to the university" in that sentence it would be meaningless, and quite possibly ungrammatical. How would you (US speakers) ask the question?

For me, the usage with university (almost always referred to as college here in the States) and with hospital are different.

X: Oh, Y, long time no see.
Y: I was in the hospital.
X: Oh, where?
Y: UCSF.

But with post-secondary institutions of learning:

A: Well, my son has finally made up his mind: he's going to college next year.
B: Oh, where?
A: He's applying to Cal, UC Santa Cruz, and Hayward State.

In the first example "in the hospital" means generically "in some unspecified hospital". In the second example, saying "in the college" or "in the university" just does not sound right. But, perahps things are different in the Midwest.

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Originally posted by zmježd:
For me, the usage with university (almost always referred to as college here in the States) and with hospital are different.

X: Oh, Y, long time no see.
Y: I was in the hospital.
X: Oh, where?
Y: UCSF.

I still find this really hard to get my head round. To me, "I was in the hospital" only makes sense if the listener knows which hospital you're referring to. How would you ask a question like "Have you ever been in hospital?" or "Have you ever been admitted to hospital?" where no specific hospital is under discussion?

I'm struggling to think of a British parallel. I suppose we say things like "I've been to the doctor's" without necessarily specifying which doctor, so maybe that's the best analogy. But something still doesn't seem quite right.

I'm wondering whether it's got anything to do with the fact that the UK has public health care and the US doesn't. To us, a hospital is a public institution; if you're ill, you go there as of right. Perhaps in the US it's regarded more as a commercial enterprise, so "going to the hospital" is more like "going to the shops".

Or is that a bit far-fetched?

I don't think patients being in the hospital is a midwest thing. I have lived and worked on the west coast and I often travel about "nursey" things to the south and the east coast. No American says a patient is "in hospital." Perhaps it's like adding a useless "u" to the word "color;" who knows.

As for college and university, now I am a little confused. First of all, to me university is used far more frequently than college is. Maybe that's a nursing thing, but I don't think so. One huge difference is that it's community colleges (2-year post-secondary programs), but 4-year post-secondary schools (which are more prestigious) are universities.

However, Z's example is where we'd use "college" vs. "university." Z, as to your example "A: Well, my son has finally made up his mind: he's going to college next year." If you substituted "college" for "university," would American Joe Blow say, "He's going to the university next year." Or "He's going to university next year." I'd eat my proverbial hat if it's the former.

You could be right, Guy, why we say someone is in the hospital. At any rate, there are no "right" or "wrongs" here. This is just a difference.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
You could be right, Guy, why we say someone is in the hospital. At any rate, there are no "right" or "wrongs" here. This is just a difference.

Oh indeed. I thought I was familiar with most differences between UK and US usage, but this one has just thrown me. It seems so odd to be using the definite article when nothing definite is necessarily being referred to.

I've thought about the usage without "the" and it seems common with many different types of institution: we say that someone is "in court", "in prison" or "in church", for example. In all of these cases the addition of the definite article would change the meaning to one of simple physical location: so "I am in prison" (as a convict), but "I am in the prison" (perhaps visiting). For me "hospital" simply follows the usual rule and I had no idea that Americans treated it differently.

One case where British usage does employ the definite article is with places of entertainment: we say "I am going to the theatre/cinema", even if the listener doesn't know which theatre or cinema is being referred to. It is quite in order to ask "When did you last go to the theatre?" without meaning a specific theatre.

And, even more strangely, we say "I'm in the pub" without necessarily meaning a specific pub, but you can't say "I'm in the restaurant" without meaning a specific restaurant, as far as I'm aware. It's all much more confusing than I first thought!

Or "He's going to university next year."

That's what I would say. The whole thing about university and college is because some fine colleges (four year) decided they sound more prestigious if called an university. I am confused, though, I thought your point was that Americans always used the definite article with university. So, what's wrong with my saying, "When I was at university" in related a tale from my undergraduate years?

While Wikipedia says that in the U.S. colleges and universities are used loosely, most would agree that universities are usually larger and often made up of colleges, such as a college of nursing within Loyola University or the colleges at Yale University. A college also may be a 2-year post-secondary institution in the U.S., whereas a university never is. A university usually has graduate programs, while a college can, but often does not. So I don't think it really is a matter of universities sounding more prestigious.

Certainly there is nothing wrong with your (or any American) saying "when I was at university," and I hope I didn't insinuate that. I see I was being a bit snarky in my reply (about eating my hat and all). Still, most Americans, with the exception of z and a few others, would say "when I was at the university." The strange part is they'd then say, "when I was at college." Go figure...which again we've recently found is another Americanism.

Still, most Americans, with the exception of z and a few others, would say "when I was at the university." The strange part is they'd then say, "when I was at college."

I just have not heard it. And, it sounds strange to my ear. Maybe it's a Midwestern thing. And, I am not being snarky or whatever either. I truly have never heard it from anybody's lips.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
would American Joe Blow say, "He's going to the university next year." Or "He's going to university next year." I'd eat my proverbial hat if it's the former.

Did you mean "latter"?

In Canada it seems common to say "I'm going to university".

Ah, well. I'd better get out the mustard.

Indeed, I meant latter. For some reason, I have a habit of mixing those two words.

quote:

In Canada it seems common to say "I'm going to university".

The only American I've ever heard say that is zmj.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
I'd better get out the mustard.

What does that mean?

What does that mea

She's going to eat her hat?

Sorry, Tinman, to be so vague. I was just admitting I was wrong.

I thought I could learn something here. I was right. Theologians spend hours going on about the meaning of a sentence based on the placement of a comma. Here, it seems, there is acute stress about the the meaning of everything. The more members study the use of language the harder it is to understand anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Sorry, Tinman, to be so vague. I was just admitting I was wrong.

I knew that, but I had never heard the phrase "get out the mustard," except in a literal sense. Does it mean you're were going to eat your hat, as Z guessed, or going to eat your words? Is it a common expression?

The closest I've found online are these quotes:

quote:

“I'm sure she didn't. We've been talking, bro. I should get out the mustard cause someone's been hotdoggin'.

Stone kiss: a Peter Decker/Rina Lazarus novel Faye Kellerman, 2002.

quote:

Darold Knowles, Chicago Cub pitcher, asked if a former teammate was a hotdog: "There isn't enough mustard in the world to cover Reggie Jackson."

Sports Illustrated, January 24, 1977; The 100 Most Entertaining Athletes of All Time, By Adam Fromal Featured Columnist) on December 24, 2010
alternative version

quote:

"There isn't enough mustard in the whole world to cover that hot dog." - Darold Knowles

Baseball Almanac Reggie Jackson Quotes.

I'd never heard the phrase before but I understood what Kalleh meant straight away. "I'll eat my hat with mustard" is a common enough remark, so I naturally assumed it was an allusion to that phrase, given that Kalleh had previously promised to "eat [her] proverbial hat" if she was wrong.

Kalleh uses the phrase "eat my hat" often enough that I guessed that's what she meant.

I've often heard Kalleh and others saying they'd "eat their hat", but I've never seen or heard it used in relation to mustard, so Kalleh's reference threw me for a second. I soon cottoned on, though, as in an earlier post she'd already promised to eat her hat if wrong.

Welcome, Byzantine! Now, getting back on track - sorta - we're plowing other fields here!

Speaking of fields, I can't imagine anyone saying, "I'm going to field" instead of "I'm going to the field." In the former, "field" becomes a verb.

Well, I've heard the phrase "eat my hat," but not "eat my hat with mustard." I should have known, though. I had thought "I'll get out the mustard" was an idiom I'd never heard before, but I guess it's a new one that Kalleh just started.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: tinman,

Tinman, I haven't heard it before, but I've often said it.

I don't much like mustard . . . unless the hat is boiled wool. Now, if it's a canvas hat I'd put ketchup on it, and if it's a good leather hat I'd probably just eat it plain.

quote:

if it's a good leather hat I'd probably just eat it plain.

Horseradish sauce goes well with leather.

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Horseradish sauce goes well with leather.

Assuming that it's horsehide.