We've discussed the common misuse of the word "irony" a few times, particularly in this thread; there's an excellent article on the subject in The Guardian.

Excellent, arnie. I have never really understood why the Brits think that Americans have no irony, but I get the drift with this quote (though, it seems the author, in the end, thinks we do have irony):

"There are a few reasons why we think the Americans have no sense of irony. First, theirs is rather an optimistic culture, full of love of country and dewy-eyed self-belief and all the things that Europe's lost going through the war spindryer for the thousandth time."

I am not sure I agree with that analysis. However, one thing is certain, the Brits definitely worry about the use of "irony" more than the Americans do.

If the Americans do understand irony, what is the word for what they lack?

I have just not noticed this big difference between the U.S. and the U.K. in regards to irony, at least on this board. What is it that you are thinking?

So the Americans don't understand irony? How very ironic!

Richard English

I was about to add that "Irony is defined as what New York City tap water tastes like" but then hit your link, Kalleh, only to find a very wise poster had already made this observation. An excellent overview on the topic of irony as well.

(Everyone should review this link. You'll be tested later...)

If the Americans do understand irony, what is the word for what they lack?
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Perhaps it is that we in the USA see ourselves as standing so tall that we have proportionally no breadth.

I don't know how long this link will last; it is an article in the Chicago Tribune about advertising Budweiser Beer here in the U.S. You Brits may find it amusing because never once do the advertisers worry about the taste of the beer--only its ability to "click with babes" and "get buzzed".

Anyway, there was a funny story about a mid-90s ad that failed. It seems the ad was built around "Dick", a fictional & absurd, Monty Python-esque spokesman. According to the article the ads had all "the hallmarks of hipster humor: heavy doses of irony, campy sight gags and bizarre twists on everyday scenarios."

However, the campaign didn't work, and an ad critic analyzed why, considering the market for Anheuser-Busch beers: "...these people don't get irony; all they get is thirsty."

Heh!

In the UK (and, I believe in Canada) they ask why is US beer (yes, I know there is also good micro-brewery stuff) like making love in a canoe?

Because it's --ing close to water.

Yes, bear, I agree with you completely. Even the bottle-conditioned microbrews (such as Goose Island) are not nearly as good as British beers. However, from that scenerio where the beer drinkers didn't get the point of the ads, one begins to understand why our beer is mediocre at best. Beer in the states is considered a low-class drink. Therefore, I think it will be awhile before our beer industry is anywhere near Europe's. There is a cultural aspect to drinking beer here that prevents the middle and upper classes from imbibing. 'Tis too bad!

Although beer is our national drink, it is still considered "lower class".

The top people drink champagne; classy people drink wine; the workers drink beer.

That's rubbish, of course, but it's certainly the way in which the media tend to treat the subject. Every paper will have huge numbers of column-inches about wines and very little (if anything at all) about beers.

The strange thing is that beer is a far more complex, interesting and variable drink than wine. Squash some grapes and leave them for a few weeks and you'll get wine. It might not be very good wine, but wine it will be. Try to do the same with barley and you'll just get - barley. Even if you add water all you'll get is a kind of dough.

Wines can be any colour from yellow to red; beers can be any colour at all. Wines can be any strength from 7% to 14%; beers can be any strength from under 2% to over 20%. Wines can be any taste from dry to sweet; beers can be almost any taste.

There is just no comparison between the drinks - which is why it is so sad that most of the world (thanks to the reprehensible behaviour of the likes of A-B) believes that beer is always a cold, yellow, weak, fizzy and almost completely tasteless concoction!

Richard English

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Originally posted by Richard English:
Even if you add water all you'll get is a kind of dough.
Richard English

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I can't possibly let that pass!

I suggest you have a look at the lambic beers. You'll find that it's by spontaneous fermentation. I'll grant that it has to be boiled to obtain a wort first instead of crushed, like grapes; but hops were only added late in the 13th or 14th Century. Until then, beers had either to be of a higher alcohol content or to be drunk pretty fast, as they didn't keep.

Sorry, I could go on for ages; I'm off to imbibe

I am quite unrepentant. If you add water to barley and crush it all you'll get is a kind of dough. You must first allow the barley to germinate so as to convert the starch into malt sugars. Even Lambic beers, which are probably using the oldest brewing techniques in the world, are still using a far more complex process than are the winemakers.

I agree, you don't have to add yeast (I never said you did) but most brewers do it as it promotes consistency. Winemakers don't need to as the proper yeast is on the grape (that's the bloom you can see on the ripe fruit).

Neither did I say you had to add hops and, indeed, there are beers brewed in the UK right now that use other herbs. Froach, for example, uses heather.

The point of my posting was not to denigrate any beer style but simply to point out the complexity of the process of brewing as compared with the simplicity of winemaking.

Richard English

Now, I realize that this thread has become Beermaking 101 (which I know nothing about---however, I do hold a doctorate in BeerDrinking)--

I'd like to point out my favorite definition of irony as given by Baldrick in the UK series Blackadder:

Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?
Baldrick: Yeah! It's like goldy and bronzy, only it's made of iron.

Though looking at the entire exchange, should it really be sarcasmy?

Blackadder: Crisis, Baldrick, crisis! No marriage, no money, more bills! For the first time in my life I've decided to follow a suggestion of yours. Saddle Prince George's horse.
Baldrick: Oh sir, you're not going to become a highway man, are you?
Blackadder: No, I'm auditioning for the part of Arnold the bat in Sheridon's new comedy.
Baldrick: Oh, that's all right then.
Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?
Baldrick: Yeah! It's like goldy and bronzy, only it's made of iron.

I drank some Texan beer once - at the Texas stand in the World Travel Market. The large man in a large ten-gallon hat said to me, when I told him that I didn't much care for American beer, "...this ain't American beer son, this here's TEXAN beer..."

Having forced down a glass of the cold, fizzy, tasteless rubbish, I wasn't sure whether it was irony or just simple ignorance that had prompted his comment!

Richard English

Welcome to the board Winterbranch and don't mind Richard. When it comes to discussing beer he's well informed, mostly right and frequently rather grumpy if American beers or B*******r in particular are mentioned.

Glaubt es mir - das Geheimnis, um die größte Fruchtbarkeit und den größten Genuß vom Dasein einzuernten, heisst: gefährlich leben.
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.

I understand completely, I'm a little more discriminating in my choice of beers than the average American, or even Texan.

Richard, how do you feel about the Japanese beers? I'm quite fond of Sapporo, myself.

accidental double post - please ignore.

[This message was edited by BobHale on Sun Aug 24th, 2003 at 4:33.]

Post removed to a separate thread.

Glaubt es mir - das Geheimnis, um die größte Fruchtbarkeit und den größten Genuß vom Dasein einzuernten, heisst: gefährlich leben.
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.

WinterBranch, I believe that Richard will be away for a couple of days.

It is wonderful to have another discriminating beer lover here! Be sure to look at some of our old beer posts. I used to think that "Harp" was the best beer around. However, our considerable English presence here prompted me to buy the best beer I have ever, in my life (and my husband's), tasted: Fuller's 1845. Call around and see if you can get it. It is absolutely heavenly and really redefines what beer really is.

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It is wonderful to have another discriminating beer lover here!

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I don't know if I'm that discriminating, but I sure don't drink the "p***water swill" my Dad drinks, either!

(And by that, I do mean <shudder> Miller Lite.)

The Presidents of Coors, Anheuser Busch, and XXXX [insert the name of your favorite real classy, GOOD beer] chanced to meet at a bar.

"A glass of Coors, Bartender," ordered the President of Coors.

"I'll have a cold Bud," said the President of Anheuser-Busch.

"A Coca-Cola for me," requested the President of XXXX.

The other two turned to him in surprise. "You're the President of XXXX Beer! Why a Coke?"

"Oh," he said, "I figured if you're not having real beer, then I shouldn't either."

I haven't tried many Japanese beers but those I've tried are just identikit beers. Remember, in most of the world beer is a cold, yellow, fizzy, weak and almost tasteless liquid. Some are more or less yellow; more of less fizzy; more or less weak.

But it's like the difference between Coca Cola and Pepsi Cola. They are different, I have no doubt, but they are both brown, fizzy and rather sickly drinks that rot your teeth.

The difference between what the rest of the world believes is beer and what we afficionados know is beer, is a difference of orders of magnitude. Ask one who has tried a real beer.

I don't wish to denigrate all Japanese beers but I have to say I have never yet tried one that I liked - they have all been cold, fizzy and yellow.

Richard English

I have to say, WinterBranch, I rather agree with Richard. Really, try a Fuller's 1845 and see if it isn't just the most wonderful beer you've ever had. Before I posted here, I had no idea what really good beer tasted like.

I'll look for it!

Btw, I do like Guiness warm from a tap... does that redeem me in any way?

(Okay, actually, I don't like the first one--but after that? Nummy! You have to get your brain around the whole dark beer thing, people, it takes at least one!)

Of all the multi-national megabrewers there are, so far as I am concerened Guinness is the only one that produces anything like a decent drink.

It's not to everyone's taste having a high level of burnt malt bitterness. I find also that it's not too clean to the palate and thus doesn't quench my thirst so well as many other beers.

Having said which, though, it is a welcome oasis in a desert of yellow chemical fizz.

One thing to be aware of. Guiness is not the same drink everywhere, although it is marketed as though it is. All Guinness is very black and has a heavy firm head - that is true. However the recipes and hence flavours vary from country to country. Irish Guiness, for example, is far softer and smoother than is English Guinness; US Guinness has a slight licorice taste; Nigerian Guinness is a more sharp and harsher drink.

As Kalleh says, though, Fullers 1845 is a better drink by far than any Guinness. Go to http://www.fullers.co.uk/ for more information

Richard English

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One thing to be aware of. Guiness is not the same drink everywhere, Richard English

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...and there is a drink sold in parts of Africa which bears the Guinness lable and is presumably properly licensed by the brewery but which is a similar looking but non-alcoholic malt drink that tastes like cold Horlicks. (Sorry, I have no idea of a US equivalent for this reference, maybe someone else can supply one.)

Glaubt es mir - das Geheimnis, um die größte Fruchtbarkeit und den größten Genuß vom Dasein einzuernten, heisst: gefährlich leben.
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.