While I was in the Boston metropolitan area, I read a local newspaper article about how letter writing has gone out of style now that we have computers and cell phones for text messages. We all know that's true, and I can't imagine that letter writing will ever come back in style again, though one never knows.

However, the article lamented that now we no longer will have a record of messages between people. While IMs and text messages can't be saved, surely computer messages are. All mine are archived on gmail. How do you think lack of letter writing will affect us in the future? At all? I actually think computers increase communication between people. I surely never wrote as many letters as I send emails.

I think the newspaper is writing from the (dubious) propositition that emails are not letters.

As I say in my letter-writing course material, "The advent of email and other alternatives like faxes does not remove the necessity for proper letter-writing skills. A bad letter is a bad letter - no matter how it reaches its destination".

As an enthusuiast for the written word, I am delighted with the advent of email as it allows me to write a proper letter and be sure that it will be at its destination in seconds.

Texting is slightly different and my own thoughts are that it has replaced the telegram, rather than the letter. I never much cared for telegrams which might be why I don't much care for texts.

I think I've banged on about this before, but here I go again.

Far too many people don't agree with Richard that writing email is the same as writing a letter. I receive far too many emails that are written in "txt spk" or else contain egregious spelling or other errors. Whilst writing an email does not need the formality of letter-writing, it should at least be comprehensible. Sending an email that is poorly written is tantamount to an insult; the recipient was not considered worthy of the sender spending a little time on polishing and checking the message before sending it.

I always hated writing letters - and still do. I had to write "thank you" letters to relatives for birthday and Christmas presents and, by the time I'd written the same thing to several dozen, I was really bored.

I also can't write properly. Although my spelling and vocabulary are excellent, I have a lot of trouble with actually physically forming the characters and I frequently omit letters and elide words. If I write so that I can read it again later (and especially if I know someone ELSE has to read it), it takes me AGES and I get cramp in my fingers in the meantime. As for filling in forms .....

I'd much rather type but, even then, I tend to make a lot of errors. I remember the days of manual typewriters when typists had to use erasers to correct typos, then correction papers and fluids were introduced and now I'm thoroughly spoiled by the introduction of word processors .

I love emails. They make life SOOOOOO much easier for those who, like me, HATE writing conventional letters and also need to contact someone NOW but need something more permanent than a phone call.

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I love emails. They make life SOOOOOO much easier for those who, like me, HATE writing conventional letters and also need to contact someone NOW but need something more permanent than a phone call.

Of course, if you want to write a properly laid-out letter, nicely formatted with appropriate styles, well punctuated and accurate in every respect, then you can always construct it in Word (using that program's many facilities) and attach it to the email.

I will arive just a quickly but retain its formatting (which conventional emails often fail to do).

I realize this may surprise some of you, but I, too, love actual written letters. I have had many penpals throughout my life, and have enjoyed writing great long letters. My handwriting, however, is atrocious. I love typing, and can type at a decent speed, as well. I love spell-check!

I think letter-writing, the formality of emails, etc, again (like so many other things in life) have different requirements for formality and attention to detail in various contexts. I don't bother to spell check and think out a casual email to a good friend - and if our correspondence is frequent I sometimes won't even use whole phrases. However, when I'm sending an email that will be widely read at work, or one that will likely reach the eyes of The Boss or The Public, I am very careful to compose it with thought and run the spell/grammar check several times.

As we've talked about before, I'm terrible with details and will often get "its" and "it's" mixed up and any number of other little things. I rely heavily on WORD to help me catch and repair those mistakes. I also keep at least one gifted proofreader handy for those times when it is most important to be correct.

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While IMs and text messages can't be saved,

I don't know about txt messages, but I do know that IMs can be saved. You can log all of them, silently hiding them in a folder forever. I consider it to be like tapping a phone, though. As RE points out that txt is more like a telegram, I think of IM as I think of a phone call. It's immediate and interactive.

One last point: the problem with electronic correspondence is that it can easily be added to or editted without it being obvious. You can go in and type more, and it's not in a different hand, doesn't require more paper, etc. That's the problem I have with electronic correspondence being used as proof of anything.

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and run the spell/grammar check several times.

I have that set as a default, which means that all my emails are automatically spell-checked before they are sent.

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Originally posted by Caterwauller:

I think letter-writing, the formality of emails, etc, again (like so many other things in life) have different requirements for formality and attention to detail in various contexts.

Yes. emails and txts have their uses: horses for courses. But, for any personal message, no ballpoints, gels,or fibretips for me; you can't beat old-fashioned, real ink, a fountain pen, and writing with care. And, it's so much more satisfying to write in this way.

I am pleased to learn that I'm not the only person left who has a fountain pen...

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Originally posted by Richard English:
I am pleased to learn that I'm not the only person left who has a fountain pen...

I too have, and even sometimes use, a fountain pen. Rather nice one actually - Harrow School fountain pen.

I regret that mine is only a Sheaffer.

I met a man the other day who worked for Onoto and he had a pocketful of the most beautiful pens, some worth in excess of £10,000!

I think the computer age has become a good thing for reading, more e-mails are now sent rather than phoning someone. The forums I attend require reading carefully, they're obviously immensely popular and I'm often amazed by the wit on many of them, even if they are poor at spelling and punctuation! A hot rod forum I attend here in England had someone complain about spelling, grammar, and punctuation and I swear that even the worst posters tried to improve their act! It was much improved afterwards and it obviously helps those that might be poor at English to see things written down properly, on the basis that any reading can only improve your own knowledge of the language.

I think it's great that someone spoke up about the poor grammar, spelling, and punctuation. I wish we would have had higher expectations on Wordcraftjr because I think it either would have encouraged the kids to write better, or the recalcitrant ones would have left and other kids, with more of an appreciation for language, would have come in.

I don't write emails any differently than I ever wrote real letters. I have to agree with someone they quoted in the article I read where he said you have to get a pen, paper, envelope, write the letter, find the address and write that on the envelope along with your return address, and stamp the envelope. Then you have to find a mailbox. To email, you just have to write it and click "send."

What I hate are posts on any forums which consist mostly of textspeak. I don't so much mind bad spelling and grammar because many people on internet forums either do not have English as their first language or have other literacy problems such as dyslexia, but there is no excuse for sloppiness.

I subscribe to a newsgroup for a school I used to attend - St. John's on the British army base at Episkopi in Cyprus. It was a school for the children of all servicemen in western Cyprus, not just those in the army, and there was a corresponding one on the other big base at the eastern end of the island.

When I went there back in the early 1960s it required a national exam pass (the 11+) to get into it. The academic standard at the school was excellent and those who failed the entrance exam went to a different school in the area which had a teaching standard which was considered "more suitable for their abilities" - presumably less academic.

When the British government abolished the 11+ in the late 60s, that two-tier system was abolished too and all children went to the same schools - regardless of their academic abilities. This shows in the difference between the posts of those who went to St. John's after that time. The spelling and grammar are appalling - they can't ALL be dyslexic - and most of the posts are almost wall-to-wall textspeak (some of these people are at least 40 years old, they're not teenagers). I've given up giving the posts more than a cursory glance now because I really don't want to plough through all that guff .

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To email, you just have to write it and click "send."

Which is one reason why the standards of lexicography are sometimes poorer in emails. It would be rare to send out a handwritten letter without have re-read it, and quite often having slept on it. But an email - just hite "send" and it's there.

A ALWAYS re-read my emails before I send them but, even so, still make silly mistakes (which I usually spot just after I hit send and whilst the message is still on the screen but now unalterable).

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I too have, and even sometimes use, a fountain pen. Rather nice one actually - Harrow School fountain pen.

As the Welsh would say "now there's posh!".

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I too have, and even sometimes use, a fountain pen. Rather nice one actually - Harrow School fountain pen.

Concealing my innate snobbery with unsubtle skill, may I ask: What's a bright chap from Bilston Grammar School doing with a Harrow School fountain pen?

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Originally posted by Richard English:
I regret that mine is only a Sheaffer.

I met a man the other day who worked for Onoto and he had a pocketful of the most beautiful pens, some worth in excess of £10,000!

Great. Why don't you ask your newly found friend to pass one of his Onotos onto me — gratis. It would get good use, meticulous care, and my undying gratitude to you both. What Chutzpah, but you have got to try.

The only time I've ever used a fountain pen was in Art class when we studied calligraphy. Do school children in the UK still learn with fountain pens? Certainly slows the work.

I do appreciate a good pen, though. I like how they've been perfecting the flow of ink, etc, and I like a pen that feels a bit weighty in my hand - a pen of substance.

I also like nice pencils.

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Originally posted by Caterwauller:
Do school children in the UK still learn with fountain pens? Certainly slows the work.

Sadly no longer. I am not sure that it does slow the work.

In my time at school we went from pencils and crayons to pen and ink. Not a fountain pen, but one you dipped in an ink well. Most graduated to fountain pens after a while but it wasn't until I was about 15 was I allowed to use a ball-point pen. Even then some teachers insisted on the use of a fountain pen for written work we handed in for marking.

Nowadays I understand they go directly from pencils to ball-points.

Ah, how we all lament the passing of chalk and slate...

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Why don't you ask your newly found friend to pass one of his Onotos onto me

I'll be seeing him tomorrow evening in London so I'll see what kind of deal he might be happy to do.

We will be looking at the Mercedes McLaren sports car, so there might even be other goodies for those with the odd half a million quid spare.

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Which is one reason why the standards of lexicography are sometimes poorer in emails. It would be rare to send out a handwritten letter without have re-read it, and quite often having slept on it. But an email - just hite "send" and it's there.

I would imagine that most of us here do proofread our emails; I know I do. I also would imagine that those who don't, wouldn't proofread handwritten letters either. I don't think there is much difference.

Could we poor Americans have a lesson in what a Harrow school pen is? I also don't know what an Onoto is, but that sounds a little familiar so perhaps I should.

I like pens, too. I used to buy fountain pens, just because I love them so. However, they really aren't all the practical, so I use a nice Mount Blanc that I got for Hannukah from a friend. It's a rollerball, but it writes smoothly. It is black with a little gold on it, and I just adore it!

I've got my father's Parker fountain pen. I used to use fountain pens, but nothing can improve my handwriting - no matter how much I try .

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Originally posted by Richard English:

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Why don't you ask your newly found friend to pass one of his Onotos onto me

I'll be seeing him tomorrow evening in London so I'll see what kind of deal he might be happy to do.

We will be looking at the Mercedes McLaren sports car, so there might even be other goodies for those with the odd half a million quid spare.

Thanks Richard. I'll send my address when he is ready to post one, gratis of course. But don't press him too hard on the Merc/McLaren, I have got a few in the garage, and the butler/footman says they are a nuisance to clean.

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Originally posted by Dianthus:
I've got my father's Parker fountain pen. I used to use fountain pens, but nothing can improve my handwriting - no matter how much I try .

It's not a matter of improving your handwriting. It's all about that mythical 'style'.
I have my Dad's Parker Duofold, date 1920 approx; it leaked, but with a great deal of difficulty I managed to get the nib repaired. My daily writing is done with a Parker 51, which my late Mother gave me to for my school exams, in the 1950s. I eventually wore out that nib; metal fatigue, they said, and I had it replaced by a new nib, which serves me well.
Curiously, last night an old chum actually telephoned to say how wonderful it was to receive a handwritten letter, actually penned in real ink. So there are occasional rewards for one's wholesale rejection of nasty throw-away ballpoints and roller balls etc.

Are your Parker pens the same as ours? I was raised in the city in Wisconsin where they used to be made.

What's a Harrow school pen?

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
Are your Parker pens the same as ours? I was raised in the city in Wisconsin where they used to be made.

What's a Harrow school pen?

The are fountain pens made for Harrow School, perhaps the most prestigious public school in England (old Etonians will no doubt disagree. They look very stylish and carry the Harrow School crest. (Lest anyone think otherwise I am NOT an Old Harovian, I just work there someties in the Summer and was given the pen because I did some extra unpaid work out of good will.)

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
Are your Parker pens the same as ours?
As far as I know they are the same.

What's a Harrow school pen?

Ask BobHale who first boasted owning one. I guess, but only guess, it is a standard fountain pen (Parker/Sheaffer/Mont Blanc etc.) dispensed by Harrow School probably with their school logo. Harrow is one of the best and oldest Public Schools in England, and like Eton, has a ceratin je ne sais quoi snobbery wrongly attached to its reputation.

Wow, I'm getting psychic. I managed to answer your implied criticism about boasting and snobbery before you'd made your post. You shouldn't make assumptions. As it happens I agree with you about the snobbery - the local attitude to the "Hill" is that the students and teachers there stay there and the rest of the town likes it that way.

For those who don't know about Harrow and its ilk, public schools over here are NOT like public schools in the States. They are, in fact, the exact opposite in England and Wales, being extremely prestigious (and expensive) PRIVATE schools. See here for a rather biased critique, here for a short history and this site tells you the dates of their founding (the oldest being Westminster, founded in 1179). The school in my town, Winchester, is a relative newcomer dating only from 1382.

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Are your Parker pens the same as ours? I was raised in the city in Wisconsin where they used to be made.

Yes, The Parker Pen Company is American, and it is a well-regarded brand over here.

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Yes, The Parker Pen Company is American, and it is a well-regarded brand over here.

Good Lord, Richard, if you keep making such open-minded comments you're bound to change your reputation! <just teasing>

Good to know the strong work-ethic, ingenuity and attention to details in this fine American company are appreciated over the pond.

I have never denied that there is much that is fine about the USA and this applies to some of its traditional industries.

Where I take issue is when there is the assumption often made (not by those on this board I would add) that because it is American it must necessarily be the best and 100% right.

I have made this point elsewhere but will make it again: The USA must look to its laurels as it is being rapidly overhauled by other countries in many areas (just take a look at the countries of origin of the consumer goods in your local WalMart).

Some recently published facts that should cause you concern since they refer to areas where the USA should have worldwide superiority because of its technological prowess:

The US was number 1 in broadband access in 2000; now it is 16th. In 2000, the USA made 40% of world’s telecom equipment; now it makes only 21%. And the US is now down to 42nd in percentage ownership of cellphones.

It is time for America's famous get up and go (that was allowing US industry to build Liberty Ships during WW2 faster than most companies can build houses) was summonsed again to pull the USA out of the hole it's in before it's too late!

I agree with Richard here. Many Americans are too complacent with their country's place in the world. The British in 1900 thought they had it all too, a mighty Empire, a massive manufacturing industry, the largest merchant fleet, the largest Navy, the financial centre of the world. Fifty years (and two world wars) later and it was nearly all gone. A hundred years later Britain is still a major financial centre but as a manufacturing nation it is almost moribund, whilst still a strong country, I bet the Victorians would never have believed it!
I say this not because I'm anti-American- I think you know that I'm not anyway because of my contributions to this board- I admire much about the USA, except perhaps some of the politicians, but that too is an opinion I share with many Americans.
I suspect that in 50 years time we'll be looking back and wondering how come the Chinese or the Indians or someone we hadn't even thought of are so far ahead of us! I'll have to live long enough to find out!

All great (or should that be mighty) empires fade. The Persian, the Greek, the Egyptian, the Babylonian, the Moghul, the Chinese, the Roman, the French, the British, and now the American. One nice thing about being at the top is the splendid view of everything you have right before the inevitable slide to the bottom.

While I agree that all empires eventually fade, I don't agree that all Americans are complacent about their country's place in the world or that Americans think that our country is the best or 100% right. I don't doubt that's reported in the rest of the world, but while I haven't met everyone who lives in the U.S., from the sample of people I've known, that's not the case.

Okay, Britons (I do miss that "Brit" word!), are the Harrow school pens expensive? How much would one be?

As for Parker Pens, it is interesting to see people's postive comments about them. I was born and raised in Janesville, Wisconsin, the home of Parker Pen. My mother at one time worked at that company. The company was well-regarded when I lived there. Therefore, one would think I would love Parker Pens. I don't. I find them quite mediocre.

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Therefore, one would think I would love Parker Pens. I don't. I find them quite mediocre.

There are certainly better pens, but as a reliable, reasonable quality and not too expensive writing instrument they are well-regarded here.

I have a Sheaffer (also a US firm) and would rank that alongside Parker.

I would prefer a Waterman or an Onoto, but can't really justify the cost of even a Waterman - let alone an Onoto!

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I don't doubt that's reported in the rest of the world, but while I haven't met everyone who lives in the U.S., from the sample of people I've known, that's not the case.

Well, you saw the posting from World Values Survey which suggested that 70% of those from the USA are proud of their country with all that such an attitude implies. That's 1st equal with Ireland and well above the rest of the world. That still means there are 30% who are not proud to be Americans, of course.

I have seen no reports in normal media about US pride and belief; my opinions are based on my own experience and relationships with a tidy number of Americans, and on the surveys I have quoted.

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Originally posted by Kalleh:

Okay, Britons (I do miss that "Brit" word!), are the Harrow school pens expensive? How much would one be?

As far as I know you can only buy them in the shool shop or be given them by the school as a prize (or as a cheap way of avoiding paying you overtime!)

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Originally posted by zmjezhd:
One nice thing about being at the top is the splendid view of everything you have right before the inevitable slide to the bottom.

The nice thing about being at the bottom is that you always look upwards and can aspire to greater things—if you are foolish enough to want them.
In an era when being the victim or underdog is fashionable, being at the bottom may even be desirable.

Kalleh, generalisations are as ever the problem! I've travelled many miles in the USA without any problems and have found the people with rare exceptions to be friendly, decent and generous but also rather insular. The USA is such a big country that many-some?-of it's inhabitants take little or no interest in the rest of the world, the news programmes being particularly guilty of this, to the point that they are sometimes woefully ignorant of different cultures, sometimes having only a cliched view of say the Italians or the French or even amazingly, the British!

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Well, you saw the posting from World Values Survey which suggested that 70% of those from the USA are proud of their country with all that such an attitude implies.

And, Richard, I have posted before what I think of those surveys that you post about.

Erik, I will agree that Americans tend to be more insular than Europeans. I suspect that has a lot to do with size.

I'd consider Schaeffer pens of lower quality than Parker pens.

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And, Richard, I have posted before what I think of those surveys that you post about.

Would you, I wonder, have the same attitude towards a survey that you had found that happened to support a hypothesis of yours ;-)

I do not try to suggest that all surveys are accurate or unbiased; I do suggest that a survey of significant size, run by a significant organisation, is more likely to give accurate data than would be data based our own views, derived from our limited and restricted circle of acquaintances and experiences.

Back to the idea of writing letters . . .

I wonder if any of you have seen this humorous (and fictional) story in letters about one man trying to change the way hotel maids do their jobs?