Neo-Nazi jailed for plotting to kill Asian friend who he likened to a 'cockroach'

I am not familiar with this use of the word "friend".

I think it's derived from Facebook.

And of course there is always the who/whom issue..

With “whom” I teach my students that they will need to know it because it might be in their exams but that it is so outdated that it has almost disappeared from spoken language altogether and no one will ever care if they ignore it completely and they are unlikely to ever hear it.

Shall I burn Hemmingway's novel and John Donne's poem? To me it seems that there are times when "whom" carries more freight.

You may not like the idea but "whom" is, if not actually dead then certainly moribund in normal speech. True there are a few die-hards who make a point of using it but if anyone claims that they would say "This is the guy whom I saw" rather than "This is the guy who I saw" then I'd say they should listen to their own words more carefully because outside literary novels I haven't seen or heard the word in decades.

To whom have you been listening?

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff:
To whom have you been listening?

And I'll bet you a penny that in real life you would never utter that sentence. Not only would you use "who" you would also end the sentence with a preposition.

So, who have you been listening to?

If you've been talking to a Chinese colleague, it might be, "Hu, have you been listening too?"

I hear, write and say "whom" a lot.

Perhaps it's different here in the U.S.? I'm not sure.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
I hear, write and say "whom" a lot.

Perhaps it's different here in the U.S.? I'm not sure.

I'll bet you don't do it nearly as much as you think you do.

The copyright 2021 book I just finished reading uses "whom." The author is a 40-y/o lawyer.

Indeed, and that kind of legal setting is probably the last regular hold out of the usage. Remember legal documents tend to use archaic language. You might even find a "whomsoever" if you look sharply enough but you would never see one in the wild.

If anyone claims they say "Whom did you see?" rather than "Who did you see?" I simply won't believe it.

I just don't think you are correct, Bob, but I don't know how to prove it. Let me ask our marketing/media person who does a lot of writing for our organization, and in doing so reads a lot of others' writing.

So do YOU ever say "Whom do you see?" or "Whom did the people choose as President" or "This is the man whom I told you about" or "I don't know for whom I should vote"?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BobHale,

I genuinely almost NEVER hear anyone use "whom" in speech. I see it occasionally in writing and still hear it in legal contexts such as "to whom it may concern" but I simply don't even recall ever hearing anyone say it who wasn't deliberately trying to be pedantic.

What is it with LBC and the word "friend". Here's another headline from a terrible, terrible news story from their website.

"Teenager stabbed and tried to behead 12-year-old friend in ‘brutal and horrific’ murder"

What or who is LBC?

It's a radio station that does only phone-in and talk shows, mainly news and commentary. It originally stood for London Broadcasting Company but when it went national it changed its name to just the initials with an advertising slogan of Leading Britain's Conversation.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BobHale,

quote:

So do YOU ever say "Whom do you see?" or "Whom did the people choose as President" or "This is the man whom I told you about" or "I don't know for whom I should vote"?

You are right. In those circumstances I'd say "who." But I do use "whom" when I talk. I'll let you know the next time.

In recent years I've come to associate "who" with a Chinese family name.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:

quote:

So do YOU ever say "Whom do you see?" or "Whom did the people choose as President" or "This is the man whom I told you about" or "I don't know for whom I should vote"?

You are right. In those circumstances I'd say "who." But I do use "whom" when I talk. I'll let you know the next time.

In my experience this is how discussion of “whom” always goes. People say they use it but when given examples of how - according to older textbooks - it is supposed to be used they say that of course in those examples they wouldn’t use it. When asked how they would use it if not as in those examples all they can come up with are a few fixed phrases that have become linguistic fossils such as “for whom the bell tolls” or “to whom it may concern”. When it’s then pointed out that as a grammatical form it is almost never used they then insist that it is still alive and well even though they can’t think of an example. And then I give up trying.

Here we go again - this time from a local newspaper in England

"Killer murdered friend with 'Rambo' knife after argument outside Wolverhampton flat". This use of "friend seems to be spreading.

Spousal murder isn't rare, so maybe "friend" isn't so inappropriate. It seems one can get TOO close!

I think I am missing something. Can't people murder friends?

What would Julius Caesar say?

quote:

Originally posted by BobHale:
With “whom” I teach my students that they will need to know it because it might be in their exams but that it is so outdated that it has almost disappeared from spoken language altogether and no one will ever care if they ignore it completely and they are unlikely to ever hear it.

Somehow I missed this thread, sorry.
Bob I like the way you taught your students about who vs whom. I’ve had almost entirely PreK students learning beginning Spanish in recent decades, but was blessed to have a tutee in French from elemch thro hisch [long after US PreK parents dropped Fr in favor of Sp]. Your advice to Chinese students reminds me of what I told him about the standard French reversal of subject-predicate in the interrogative. You need to know it not only because it’s correct, but also you will encounter it routinely in Fr lit. However, be advised that in current conversational French, it is ignored 80% of the time, in favor of turning a sentence into a question via tone of voice [e.g., instead of “Puis-je aller aux toilettes?” (Can/may I go to the bathroom?), “Je peux aller aux toilettes?]

Bob, re: your other theme here-- to me it just highlights the stat that violence is usually done to family members or close friends. Those are the people in WHOM we tend to invest out strongest emotions.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
I think I am missing something. Can't people murder friends?

Of course they can. There just seems to be a trend lately in journalism to always identify the victim as a "friend" in the headline.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:

quote:

So do YOU ever say "Whom do you see?" or "Whom did the people choose as President" or "This is the man whom I told you about" or "I don't know for whom I should vote"?

You are right. In those circumstances I'd say "who." But I do use "whom" when I talk. I'll let you know the next time.

You never did get back to me with an answer as to when you WOULD use "whom".

Ah, well, maybe you are right. In trying to come up with something, it always sounded so stilted. Definitely I use it in writing though.