This was part of a story in today's Providence Journal. What do you think of it?

A Superhero should not wear a cape. Think of banners, flags declaring power or loyalty, St. Bernards with small kegs of Brandy, their impulses toward rescue. Think of Jesus’s deep sigh in the Temple when he saw those in need of healing had come to see him, how he weighed easing suffering & going public with his power. The leper now unblemished ‘& free of sores couldn’t help but sing his praises & this would mean the end of his own life. How he saw all of this yet proceeded through the line of the limbless, deaf & dying & healed them all, commtted to salvation & also his own demise. Solace is being called to rise to the occasion, giving your gifts, reaching fingers into the wound of the body that will also betray you.

Sounds like the author got into the uisge beatha. Grammatically it seems OK. Content-wise it wanders without a point.

I don't understand the first examples. I think the author does make a valid point that genuine heroes may well see the seeds of their own destruction in their humanitarianism, but proceed all the same. Despite my thinking that the Jesus stories are mostly fabrications, they do have a point. Gandhi, MLK, et al. knew they would face death, but proceeded.

This didn't generate much response, so let me post it as it actually appeared in the paper.

A Superhero
should not wear a cape. Think
of banners, flags declaring power
or loyalty, St. Bernards with small
kegs of Brandy, their impulses
toward rescue. Think of Jesus’s
deep sigh in the Temple when he saw

those in need of healing had come
to see him, how he weighed easing
suffering & going public
with his power. The leper
now unblemished ‘& free
of sores couldn’t help but sing
his praises & this would mean
the end of his own life. How
he saw all of this yet proceeded

through the line of the limbless,
deaf & dying & healed them all,
commtted to salvation & also his own

demise. Solace is being called
to rise to the occasion, giving
your gifts, reaching fingers
into the wound of the body that will also
betray you.

It is one of a book of poems by the state's latest poet laureate, Rick Benjamin. It seemed to fit the mold of what I'd consider typical poet laureate offerings. Not too inspired or interesting, or poetical (except in the odd placement of sentences and paragraphs, and idiosyncratic punctuation [&]).

Ah, yes. The old if it don't rhyme and scan it ain't poetry argument. There is more to poetry than meter and rhyme, and I'm not just talking about so-called "modern free verse". Most European poetry written before roughly 1000 CE did not rhyme. This includes the classics in Latin, Greek, and Sanskrit. Some Germanic poetry used alliteration within a line, e.g., Old English, see Beowulf. Some of this same Germanic poetry did not even have a fixed number of syllables in a line, e.g., some Old English poetry had a fixed number of stressed syllables, but a variable number of unstressed or lighted stressed ones; Gerard Manley Hopkins tried something similar in the 19th century with his sprung rhythm. Biblical Hebrew poetry had neither fixed meter nor rhyme; it tended to use patterns based on the repetition of syntactic structures (see some of the Psalms). The more different kinds of poetry you are exposed to the more untenable the position that rhyme and meter are required properties. There are many different kinds of rhyme, e.g., alliteration, assonance, consonance, slant rhyme, etc. In fact it seems that meter and rhyme developed in poetry not as an integral part of the poem but to facilitate in the composition and reciting of an oral literature. YMMV.

I think one of the things about this is that the line breaks don't come where most would expect them. In fact, they seem rather arbitrary.

Would this appeal more, perhaps?

A Superhero
should not wear a cape.
Think of banners,
flags declaring power or loyalty,
St. Bernards with small kegs of Brandy,
their impulses toward rescue.

Think of Jesus’s deep sigh in the Temple
when he saw those in need of healing
had come to see him,
how he weighed easing suffering
& going public with his power.
The leper now unblemished & free of sores
couldn’t help but sing his praises
& this would mean the end of his own life.

How he saw all of this yet proceeded
through the line of the limbless,
deaf & dying & healed them all,
commtted to salvation & also his own demise.

Solace is being called to rise to the occasion,
giving your gifts, reaching fingers
into the wound of the body
that will also betray you.

Obviously, different people would break the same lines at different points and my way above is only one way. I also agree that the egregious use of the ampersand instead of and detracts from any message.

quote:

YMMV.

Hmmm... In Hebrew that's read right to left... Oh, yeah, here it is! http://www.stnicholasowen.co.u...parallel/B23C048.htm

quote:

Ah, yes. The old if it don't rhyme and scan it ain't poetry argument. There is more to poetry than meter and rhyme, and I'm not just talking about so-called "modern free verse". Most European poetry written before roughly 1000 CE did not rhyme. This includes the classics in Latin, Greek, and Sanskrit. Some Germanic poetry used alliteration within a line, e.g., Old English, see Beowulf. Some of this same Germanic poetry did not even have a fixed number of syllables in a line, e.g., some Old English poetry had a fixed number of stressed syllables, but a variable number of unstressed or lighted stressed ones; Gerard Manley Hopkins tried something similar in the 19th century with his sprung rhythm. Biblical Hebrew poetry had neither fixed meter nor rhyme; it tended to use patterns based on the repetition of syntactic structures (see some of the Psalms). The more different kinds of poetry you are exposed to the more untenable the position that rhyme and meter are required properties. There are many different kinds of rhyme, e.g., alliteration, assonance, consonance, slant rhyme, etc.

Absofrigginlutely, to be poetical.

But, as Arnie showed in his improved example, sometimes things don't work out the way you want. Ordered free verse is a different kettle of fish than disorganized ramblings posed as poetry. I refer you to James Franco's "inaugural poem" which is just a list of everyone he met at a party, yet it's published as (admittedly bad) poetry..

http://www.thefrisky.com/2013-...ng-poem-about-obama/

the line breaks don't come where most would expect them

I actually liked that, but then I've always been a fan of enjambment (link).

YMMV

Not Hebrew וּמִמֵּי vemimeh 'and the waters' but English "your mileage may vary" (link).

But, as Arnie showed in his improved example, sometimes things don't work out the way you want. Ordered free verse is a different kettle of fish than disorganized ramblings posed as poetry. I refer you to James Franco's "inaugural poem" which is just a list of everyone he met at a party, yet it's published as (admittedly bad) poetry..

Ah, but bad poetry is still bad. I was not commenting on the aesthetic value of the poem, but its structure and poemhood. I don't know Mr Benjamin or his poetry, and I am not saying that appointed offices are not subject to all sorts of political shenanigans. I'm just saying it's a poem in response to what I thought you were implying in your posting. I realize you have not been here as long as some of us, but to those who have, there has been a long history of certain factions arguing for and against the "if it don't rhyme and scan it ain't poetry" theory.

Also, I am not sure I agree with arnie's edited version of the poem, but that's OK, now we're arguing about poetics and aesthetics and not ontology.

Back into the waters, I go.

I refer you to James Franco's "inaugural poem" which is just a list of everyone he met at a party, yet it's published as (admittedly bad) poetry..

A catalog if things is a famous trope in poetry (e.g., the catalog of ships in the Iliad, any of the lineages in a lot of Germanic poetry, but especially in the the sagas, Leporello's Madamina, il catalogo è questo in Don Giovanni). (This what your critic wrote about, perhaps, as "everything [Franco] learned in English 101". I didn't much like the poem, but then as Sturgeon said "90% of everything is crap" although the percentage may be greater.

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:

YMMV

Not Hebrew וּמִמֵּי vemimeh 'and the waters' but English "your mileage may vary" (link).

Oh, OK...... Here I go slinking away, tail between legs, after failing with my translation joke.

Well WHY DINTCHA SAY SO, Proof, it's a POEM!

Said she, waking up & reading the rest of the thread. Seriously I like your idea of posting it as prose first. Gives one a chance to see whether it holds water.

It's got a leak. The message wanders.

But I like it a whole lot better as poetry. Line breaks OK w/me. It fell off the wire for me with the word "solace" which is just too abstract for a free verse, where there's no safety net & every single word counts; better off with very concrete words.

IMHO.

But I like it a whole lot better as poetry. Line breaks OK w/me. It fell off the wire for me with the word "solace" which is just too abstract for a free verse, where there's no safety net & every single word counts; better off with very concrete words.

An interesting experiment would be to get several people to read the stanzaic form of the poem, and then a like number to read the prose form of the poem, and then compare them. See where the caesura fall if any, and how the meter flows if any. As for the word solace, if it occurred in a recent action movie title, I just don't think it's too high-falutin' (erm, "abstract") for a "free verse poem".

Concrete poetry is an interesting genre. A lot of what some folks complain about in "free verse" is important in concrete poetry: the visual structure of the poem replaces traditional meter. Some of these poems even paint pictures with form rather than semantics.

after failing with my translation joke.

Oh, gosh darn it, G., you didn't fail, I just tried to be humorous or ironical or sumpin.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:
Concrete poetry is an interesting genre. A lot of what some folks complain about in "free verse" is important in concrete poetry: the visual structure of the poem replaces traditional meter. Some of these poems even paint pictures with form rather than semantics.

What I meant in this instance (concrete vs abstract) was: best to evoke something tangible, smellable, tasteable, aural (or visual), as opposed to a word which describes a concept or a feeling. I maintain: 'Solace' does not evoke anything immediate, and means many things to many people, which muddies the message.

HOWEVER: the poet actually brings "solace" out of the ether and defines it with a startling visual image-- on second look, I'm thinking this poets opening stanzas full of cliched & prosaic examples are all leading to this revelation.

Sure wish he hadn't said "rising to the occasion", though. It's a clunker.

Sorry to be coming to this party late, but it reminds me of that Sandburg poem I just posted in another thread, which also lacks meter and rhyming and yet is beautiful. Of course, just like meter and rhyme does not make a concrete (is that the correct description of a poem with meter and rhyming?) poem beautiful, some free verse poems aren't beautiful either. When someone just posts a prose paragraph, for example, in line form, that doesn't make it a good poem, in my opinion. Similarly, a rhyming and meter infested concrete poem doesn't mean it's a good one, either. I think it's a matter of what people think is good or not, and that tends to be individual. Similarly, I have known people who hate Monet, but love those really abstract paintings. I can't understand why anyone would prefer a large black canvas of brush strokes to Monet or Renoir, but I do understand that they are both art and that people have different opinions.

Of course, just like meter and rhyme does not make a concrete (is that the correct description of a poem with meter and rhyming?) poem beautiful, some free verse poems aren't beautiful either.

Concrete poetry (link) is a kind of poetry. Poems that have meter and rhyme are a kind of poetry, too. Concrete vs abstract words is another thing entirely. And, as I have argued before, a bad or ugly poem is still a poem.

What kind of poetry are those that require meter and rhyme? Is there a name for it? Thanks for the link to concrete poetry. Now I get it!

Yes, I believe many of us have argued that it's all poetry or art or whatever,whether it's good or not. Wasn't it Bob who came up with the definition of art as being art if the person responsible for it calls it art? That is really a loose definition, but it works for me. It may not, however, be good art to me.

What kind of poetry are those that require meter and rhyme?

Rhyming, metrical poetry? Seriously I don't know a specific name for it.

As for a definition of art, how about the first sentence in the Wikipedia entry on art? "Art is a diverse range of human activities and the products of those activities." That covers arts and crafts. Calling something art can be done by the artist or the consumer/audience. I would say that an emotional response of some sort is pivotal in art, too. For example, getting upset and crying "that's not art!" probably means that it is art.

Remember the thread a while back on haiku? I found it hard to understand why somebody who so enjoyed limericks would deny that haiku were poems. The form has a strict meter, but no rhyme. In Japanese, at least, it has a limited subject matter and must use certain "cutting words". Even limericks have changed a bunch since Lear's day: his usually repeat the first line as the final one, but now-a-days I'm sure that would be workshopped out of Lear in a week or two.

“Art is the most effective mode of communications that exists.”
― John Dewey

http://www.textetc.com/theory/emotive-expression.html

Yes, I definitely agree with the emotional component to art. When I walk into the National Gallery of Art in Washington DC, I always get goose bumps. That is my favorite art gallery of all, including the Louvre. I have not, however, seen the Museums of Art and Culture of St. Petersburg, which I've heard are wonderful. Here is a list of Reuter's top 10 art museums. We will be in LA this summer, so we'll have to go to the J. Paul Getty Center. I have not been there.

I have not, however, seen the Museums of Art and Culture of St. Petersburg, which I've heard are wonderful.

I have been to the Hermitage in (then) Leningrad, and it was amazing. Have any of you seen the Russian film called the ark. It takes place in the Hermitage / Winter Palace over a period of 300 years or so. It consists of one long shot; no editing. As the camera moves from room to room the time jumps to a new time period.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

I've seen it. A most brilliant way of narrating Russian history through the Hermitage's artifacts!
Some day I want to go! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J--TDEHizVA

I've actually written a history of Russia.

Poverty, poverty,poverty, pogrom, poverty, poverty, pogrom, revolution, poverty, pogrom, poverty, poverty....

quote:

Some day I want to go!

Me too! I thought it odd that the Reuter's top ten art museums didn't include St. Petersburg. On the other hand, I've always thought NY's Metropolitan Museum of Art over-rated, though I do love the Guggenheim. As I said, I haven't been to the LA J. Paul Getty Center. However,recently a friend went there and said the environment is beautiful (up on a hill), though she said the collection doesn't compare to Chicago's Art Institute's. I suppose she is biased, and it is a matter of opinion. However, I am also biased , and she said it has a lot of religious art, which has never been my favorite.

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I thought it odd that the Reuter's top ten art museums didn't include St. Petersburg

It's not Reuter's list. It was compiled by TripAdvisor. I assume less tourists visit the Hermitage.

Makes sense, arnie.

If Russia would establish a serious tourist industry I suspect that would change. I suspect more people in the USA know about Chernobyl than Saint Petersburg.

And they haven't done their country any good by not allowing Americans to adopt their orphans .

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And they haven't done their country any good by not allowing Americans to adopt their orphans .

Perhaps we should do an exchange of their orphans for ours.

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
And they haven't done their country any good by not allowing Americans to adopt their orphans[/url] .

So you wanna adopt a kid who's already sociopathic due to having, as the article says, staff, not parents?" Putin did the majority of prospective adoptive parents a favor. Get 'em before they're a year old or forget it - they're lost.

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Perhaps we should do an exchange of their orphans for ours.

We don't have orphanages. Heaven knows that we are not a perfect country, but this is what is happening in Russia...by Russian citizens :

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Tens of thousands of people, some
denouncing President Vladimir Putin as a "child-killer", marched
through Moscow on Sunday to protest against a ban on Americans
adopting Russian children.

Wrapped in hats and coats against the bitter cold, the
protesters shouted "Russia without Putin!" and "Putin is a
child-killer!" as they streamed down the city's Boulevard Ring,
watched by thousands of police. A helicopter buzzed overhead.

Many held photographs of pro-Kremlin legislators who backed
the ban with the word "Shame!" scrawled across them.

So, on this one, I am not going to back down.

While we may not have "orphanages" any longer, we do have a mass of orphaned children seeking parents here in the US. I don't see why it's OK to take in more orphans from other countries while our own children are in similar dire straits.

It seems ludicrous that people (of all ages) can get into the US from Europe so easily while we put up a giant fence along our southern border to prevent "illegals" from entering. I recall when the US government railed against the Russians for building a wall in Berlin, and then against the Israelis for building a partition against the Palestinians. But our wall is different (?).

"...il faut cultiver notre jardin." Voltaire, Candide

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It seems ludicrous that people (of all ages) can get into the US from Europe so easily while we put up a giant fence along our southern border to prevent "illegals" from entering.

I do agree with this.