Judah and I are going back and forth on OEDILF about a limerick I wrote, and then revised many times, on "begging the question." I think the problem is that I don't understand what "raising the question" means. I think of it as meaning that a situation brings forward a question that you want to ask. Here was the original situation I had posted, which I thought was raising the question about how to teach nurses and doctors:

We wonder just how to teach nurses
And doctors to keep out the hearses.
It's called begging the question,
And gives indigestion,
Because when there is failure...Oh curses!

However, Judah doesn't agree and says this about raising the question:

"What I see as 'begging the question', in this modern sense (begging for the question to be asked), is making a statement which does not directly raise a question; however, it invites an obvious question. 'We wonder...' is directly stating a question; that's not how I understand begging the question."

Is my limerick an example of raising the question (the modern use of "begging the question")?

I've always considered "begging the question" as meaning finding just about any way to avoid actually asking the question; in other words quite the opposite of asking for it to be asked.

I admit that I'm puzzled by the limerick on many levels, but regarding the "begging the question" issue I would guess that educating medical professionals has more to do with begging the question on handling death than avoiding it. That's a topic for another debate, though, isn't it?

I don't think your limerick satisfies my understanding of begging the question on several levels. I would think the limerick would satisfy if the line were:

"And doctors to accept the hearses."

There are two distinct questions being rasied ( ) here.

First there's, what does begging the question mean. We've discussed it before but for the sake of recent joiners I'll run through it again.

Well there are two ways of looking at that. The classical meaning of the phrase is similar to "circular argument". It's like saying that democracy is the best form of Government because all the best Governments are democracies.
Because this is the classical meaning there are many who decry the use of it as a synonym for "raise the question". People who do this can bleat on all they like but the fact is that in modern usage this has come to be its principal meaning. I'll bet (he says with no evidence whatsover) that almost no-one nowadays uses the phrase in its classical sense. (If I had the time I'd do a bit of Google corpus linguistics to see how it's used on the web, but I don't have time. Maybe someone else would like a go.)

Now all of this begs the question (sic) of what "raise the question" means. Judah seems to be making a distiction between "raises the question" and "causes the question to be raised." (I haven't read the workshopping so I could be wrong, but that's what your post seems to suggest.)

Well technically I suppose it's possible to argue that you only raise a question when you actually ask it. I'd say that it's a dubious proposition at best. If something happens that indicates that a question could be, or needs to be, asked then I'd say that it has raised the question, at least in someone's mind, even if the question hasn't been specifically vocalised.

Disregarding pedantry over what "begging the question" once meant, I'd say that in the context of,

"Well, that begs the question of why we..." and
"Well, that raises the question of why we..." the two phrases are synonymous although in the context of

"At the meeting John raised the question of...", it would be incorrect to substitute beg.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BobHale,

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I'll bet (he says with no evidence whatsover) that almost no-one nowadays uses the phrase in its classical sense.

I am sure you will be quite unsurprised to learn that is the only sense in which I would use the expression.

I had never even realised that there are those around who consider that the phrase is a synonym for "Raises the question".

quote:

Originally posted by Richard English:

quote:

I'll bet (he says with no evidence whatsover) that almost no-one nowadays uses the phrase in its classical sense.

I am sure you will be quite unsurprised to learn that is the only sense in which I would use the expression.

I had never even realised that there are those around who consider that the phrase is a synonym for "Raises the question".

Hence the "almost." Richard, you are man born out of your proper time.

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Hence the "almost." Richard, you are man born out of your proper time.

My sister always says that I was born old.

And I do not apologise for it - there is much that is "old" that deserves more praise and recognition than it presently receives.

I had resisted responding, but I am glad Richard posted because I was wondering just how out of tune with the world I am. I would never think that raises the question and begs the question were anything but opposites.

I have always considered the statement "that begs the question" as something you would say in response to an obfuscatory pronouncement.

Another more recent meaning is "to avoid the question", often by answering a completely different (unasked) question instead. For instance, a politician, asked "What do you intend to do about the plight of the homeless?" might reply "We have already raised the average minimum wage by 20% since we came to power; something our predecessors failed to do."

As usual, Michael Quinion's World Wide Words has an excellent article on the subject.

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I am sure you will be quite unsurprised to learn that is the only sense in which I would use the expression.

I wasn't surprised at all, Richard.

My source for the word in the first place was Quinion, arnie. That was an excellent discussion.

I was not asking whether "begging the question" has evolved to mean "raise the question" or to "evade the question" because that bridge has already been crossed (with apologies to Jo and Richard); the dictionaries (or Quinion) are quite clear on that.

What I was asking is whether wondering about something is "raising the question." As you can see, Judah thinks not. While I think it is, I have completely changed the limerick, and it no longer includes this example.

BTW, this is my author's note, which does explain the phrase in more detail:

"Aristotle used the Latin term petitio principii to describe a logical fallacy (or circular argument); that is, one assumes to be true the thing that he is trying to prove. Because logical fallacies are often quite subtle, they frequently come across as evading the question; this latter use is accepted in English now. However, more recently, to 'beg the question' has been used to mean 'raise the question' or to 'force the question,' and this use is considered incorrect by many linguists and grammar experts. Quinion, from the online Web site, World Wide Words, suggests avoiding the phrase altogether because of confusion with its meaning."

And this is the new limerick:

"While begging the question's a phrase
That means to evade, not to raise
The question at hand,
You must understand,
It's used incorrectly these days."

I did comment on the usage of "raise" but it seems to have been overlooked in the subsequent discussion of "beg".

Gosh...I am really embarrassed. I see that I had started this same discussion in 2005 with the exact same limerick. Sorry!

Anyway, I read this quote in the Chicago Tribune recently:

"It begs the question, are the Chicago ward constituents getting three times better representation, three times better services, and more efficiencies?" Now...that, to me, is the same as either "asking the question" or "raising the question."

Kalleh, I have never even considered what the phrase "begging the question" means until now, and don't use the expression. While reading through the thread, I realized that I only understand it to mean, "that begs [us to ask] the question." I think that if someone presented me with a circular argument, and I said "You're begging the question," he/she would just look at me blankly. But I'll have to try it.

Well, even though my compatriots disagree with me on OEDILF and wordcraft, I think the most common way we use "beg the question" now is to mean "ask the question." I don't see a difference between that and "raise the question," but apparently others do.