We linguists use "shibboleth" as a way of defining a usage group or a pronunciation group. Actually it is more exclusionary than inclusionary, meaning that we employ shibboleth to describe those who are not part of the group defined.
This is in keeping with the origins of the word: a means of identifying those who could not pronounce the "sh" since their language did not include that sound.
How do you personally use "shibboleth" or do you ever use it at all?
How do you personally use "shibboleth" or do you ever use it at all?
I've been discussing this elsewhere on the web with another group of wordfolks. I use it mainly its original sense: some feature (usually phonological) that distinguishs one linguistic group from another. Besides the word shibboleth ~ sibboleth in Hebrew, other words I think of in this context are:
1. The Danish dessert rød grød med fløde 'red compote with cream'. I'll never forget the day I was able to pronounce this phrase correctly for the benefit of my Danish relatives.
2. There's a great scene in Verhoeven's Soldier of Orange, where a group of Dutch students are trying to suss out German spies by having a stranger pronounce the name of a suburb of the Hague, Scheveningen. Some Dutch have a tough time with this one, too.
I also use the word shibboleth sometimes in its extended sense as a sort of watchword, catchphrase, or litmus test. Hope that helps.
2. There's a great scene in Verhoeven's _Soldier of Orange_, where a group of Dutch students are trying to suss out German spies by having a stranger pronounce the name of a suburb of the Hague, Scheveningen. Some Dutch have a tough time with this one, too.
A very dear friend, deceased many years now, was born and raised in Scheveningen. Pronouncing the name properly was great fun! Several other Dutch friends did have trouble with it, though.
quote:Originally posted by jo: what is the correct pronunciation?
If you're referring to Scheveningen , here's one way, although the lady saying it is producing the "K" from much further forward than my friend did. He said it with more guttural aspiration, if that makes any sense.
Welcome, Vernon! Funny, my father (from Wisconsin) used to say the same thing.
I have a question; in your profile you posted this for why you joined the forum: kyom nahin? What does it mean?
As far as "shibboleth," I haven't used it. In reading about it, it sounds divisive in that it distinguishes people of one group from another. Is it used divisively?
It can also be a custom or practice that betrays one as an outsider. I remember reading about undercover agents during WWII who would be caught because of certain mannerisms or nuances that weren't common to the Germans. Would this be called a "shibboleth?"
I have a question; in your profile you posted this for why you joined the forum: _kyom nahin?_ What does it mean?
It is an attempt to render in Roman letters the Hindi phrase that translates as "Why not?" I picked it up from a friend who is learning Hindi, and liked the sound of it.
quote:1. The Danish dessert _rød grød med fløde_ 'red compote with cream'. I'll never forget the day I was able to pronounce this phrase correctly for the benefit of my Danish relatives.
My Swedish grandmother used to make that! She pronounced it something like ruhr-grerd. It was red and delicious and served with creme, and I never heard of it anywhere else. I always wondered what that stuff was.
quote:Originally posted by Kalleh: It can also be a custom or practice that betrays one as an outsider. I remember reading about undercover agents during WWII who would be caught because of certain mannerisms or nuances that weren't common to the Germans. Would this be called a "shibboleth?"
I believe the classic difficulty concerned customs for using knives and forks. A diner cutting a bite-sized piece of meat off the larger piece on his plate will naturally wield the knife in his right hand (assuming he is right-handed), with the fork in his left hand to hold the meat steady. An American diner will then transfer the fork to his right hand before using it to bring to his mouth the piece he has cut; a European will used the fork without bothering to transfer the fork to the opposite hand.
I understand that this was one of the most difficult habits to learn for a would-be spy -- whether he be a German posing as an American, or an American posing as a German.
But I would not call it a shibboleth. To me that term implies a deliberate test devised to distinguish members from non-members of a group.
Quote "...The Danish dessert rød grød med fløde 'red compote with cream'...."
I actually said that last Tuesday when I was speaking to a Danish girl at the World Travel Market. I do so enjoy seeing a Dane's face and double-take when they here their favourite tongue-twister pronounced accurately by a foreigner!
Richard English
Posts: 8038 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UK
quote:Originally posted by jheem: I've noticed time and again that non-anglophones can be made quite happy when one attempts to communicate with them in their language.
That can backfire! Several years ago I was having dinner with a friend in an Indian restaurant, and my friend saked, "what should we order." I replied, "C'est a toi." (It's up to you) The Indian owner then approached and began speaking in perfect French at a rate that I couldn't follow! Earlier I worked with a bunch of Swedes, and they taught me just enough Swedish to be dangerous, as I discovered when a pretty woman walked past, and I said to a nearby Swede, "Hej, Arne, brau fita!" I should have said "flika," not "fita," as I soon discovered. I had complimented her on her female parts, not on her apearance!
Even though this thread got diverted a bit, the original question was about the grammatical term 'shibboleth.' It was a new term to me. However, I had occasion to look up 'unique' tonight, and AHD had a Usage Note about it that was very interesting. 'Unique' was described as a shibboleth because it cannot be modified by an adverb of degree or a comparative adverb. That is, it is incorrect to say something is 'very unique' or 'more unique.'
Is 'unique' considered a 'shibboleth' because the grammarians say that something is either unique or it isn't?This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,
Funny, my father (from Wisconsin) used to say the same thing.
