Not sure if I'm in the right category here, but I was wondering how many of our UK friends braved the weather on Sunday to watch the flotilla on the Thames, or sat glued to their TV sets last night to watch the concert. We've been enjoying watching as much of the Queen's Jubilee on BBC America as we've had time for. I especially was impressed by the choristers singing "Land of Hope and Glory" from the top deck of the HMS Diamond Jubilee, soaking wet in the driving rain. I hope they were wearing wet suit versions of their choir regalia. But seriously, could TPTB not have strung a tarp over them so that they would not end up looking like The Wreck of the Hesperus?"

Meanwhile, I've been thinking about the word "jubilee," which this year seems to mean "a year of a special celebration." I always thought a diamond jubilee was the 75th anniversary, but guess I must be wrong. I'm guessing that "jubilee" isa word more heavily in use in the UK than it is here, perhaps, and used more flexibly than we Americans use it. I think of Jubilees as being 50th anniversaries, or possibly 25th, 75th and 100th anniversaries--ie they come in increments of 25 years, not 10. On the other hand, if the queen knocks off another 10 years and closes in on Victoria's record, she deserves all the celebrations and tributes she is given.

Wordmatic

Many dics seem to believe a jubilee represents the 50th (occasionally 25th) anniversay of something. A secondary meaning is a celebration. In this case, the celebration is of a non-death, as Jon Stewart said while destroying CNN's coverage of the event.

I didn't bother watching it live, although I saw parts on the TV news. I also switched to the concert three or four times during commercial breaks in other programmes - that's one of the best things about the BBC - no adverts.

A jubilee is a specially celebrated anniversary, especially a 50th anniversary. It comes from the year of rest that was observed by the ancient Israelites every 50 years. The word comes from Middle English jubile, from Old French, from Late Latin iubilaeus, the Jewish year of jubilee, an alteration (influenced by iubilare, to raise a shout of joy), from the Hebrew yôbl, ram, ram's horn, jubilee.

In the British Commonwealth, and in the British Empire before it, a Silver Jubilee is held in the 25th year of a monarch's reign. This is followed by a Golden Jubilee in the 50th year, a Diamond Jubilee in the 60th year and a Platinum Jubilee in the 70th year(although there haven't been any of the latter so far).

The reason the Diamond Jubilee isn't on the 75th anniversary is, according to Wkipedia,

quote:

There was considerable national unrest when Queen Victoria largely withdrew from public life after her husband's death in 1861. It was decided to bring the diamond jubilee forward to the 60th anniversary on 22 June, 1897.

quote:

Originally posted by Proofreader:
Many dics seem to believe a jubilee represents the 50th (occasionally 25th) anniversay of something. A secondary meaning is a celebration. In this case, the celebration is of a non-death, as Jon Stewart said while destroying CNN's coverage of the event.

Yes, the loud whoopings and brayings of Piers Morgan and Richard Quest on CNN were what sent me straight to BBC America after about 2 minutes. Listening to those two was not tolerable. Stewart absolutely nailed them!

Wordmatic

quote:

Originally posted by arnie:
In the British Commonwealth, and in the British Empire before it, a Silver Jubilee is held in the 25th year of a monarch's reign. This is followed by a Golden Jubilee in the 50th year, a Diamond Jubilee in the 60th year and a Platinum Jubilee in the 70th year(although there haven't been any of the latter so far).

The reason the Diamond Jubilee isn't on the 75th anniversary is, according to Wkipedia,

quote:

There was considerable national unrest when Queen Victoria largely withdrew from public life after her husband's death in 1861. It was decided to bring the diamond jubilee forward to the 60th anniversary on 22 June, 1897.

There was some passing reference on the BBC to there being a controversy over what to call Victoria's 60th, but that they settled on Diamond Jubilee rather than on something with just the word "celebration." After that big hoopla, the commentary said, she rarely appeared in public again. She was younger than Elizabeth II at her Diamond J, also: 78. Your Queen is very impressive in her stamina!

Wordmatic

Great question, WM. I have seen jubilee and just thought it meant celebration. However, when I looked it up in Dictionary.com, it can mean that, but also can mean 50th anniversary. Then it called the 60th or the 75th the "diamond jubilee."

I thought this was an interesting article about how the Americans have gone overboard on this celebration. link

Sorry about Piers Morgan. How America continues to put up with him baffles me.

That's a good one.

WM

quote:

Originally posted by arnie:
Sorry about Piers Morgan. How America continues to put up with him baffles me.

Piers who?

As for overusing the word, here's proof: http://www.google.com/imgres?i...CMoBEPUBMAc&dur=3759

Piers Morgan. A particularly odious specimen.

Amazing that someone who is so irrelevant has published three volumes of memoirs, according to Wiki.

quote:

Originally posted by wordmatic:
That's a good one.
WM

This remark refers to Kalleh's NY Times article. Arnie, no need to apologize for Piers Morgan. He's not your fault!

Wordmatic

quote:

Sorry about Piers Morgan. How America continues to put up with him baffles me.

Ah, well. We have our own odious specimens, arnie!

quote:

Originally posted by arnie:
Piers Morgan. A particularly odious specimen.

Oh. Well, maybe his birthplace is the problem. That Wiki article says he came from Dorking. I must admire his honesty, as he is the only news presenter who admits his news is for children.

quote:

That Wiki article says he came from Dorking.

Yes, being a Surrey man may be part of the problem. He was also brought up in Sussex. As a man of Kent I might be slightly biased about that, though.

For some reason, the whole question of what "jubilee" means reminds me of the real definition of "decimate." They both started out specific (presumably) and evolved to being more broad.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
For some reason, the whole question of what "jubilee" means reminds me of the real definition of "decimate." They both started out specific (presumably) and evolved to being more broad.

You mean the original definition, I assume. The current meaning is no less real.

Good point, and I shouldn't try to hold them to their original meanings, should I?

Wordmatic

Ah, yes, of course you're right, arnie. I have been posting here long enough to know that! (I assume you think that about "moot point," too, right?)

"Moot" being the perfect tense of "moo?" "Hoist" was once the past tense of "hoise," so it follows...

quote:

(I assume you think that about "moot point," too, right?)

Not quite the same as two opposing meanings exist at the moment, which causes confusion. Both exist so both are theoretically correct, but I prefer the original meaning personally.

• the original meaning: requiring further discussion
• more recent meaning: not worthy of discussion.

It's rather similar to the UK and US use of "table" is meetings. Over here, if an item is "tabled", it is produced at the meeting and is discussed. I understand it's the opposite over at your side of the pond; if it's "tabled" it means it's not discussed.

Before coming to WC, I only heard "moot" used as "not worthy of discussion." But having learned the original definition there are many times when I was writing that I wanted to use "moot" in that original way, but couldn't because people wouldn't understand the use. So, while I tease you about that definition, arnie, I agree that I prefer the original one, too.

"moot point"

Oh, yes, I know how you feel. I only use nice and silly in their original senses. Of course, nobody understands me, but that's par for the course. In fact, I've given it serious thought to eschew present-day English for Old English. That should solve all my vocabulary (erm, excuse me, wordhord) problems.

z, the problem is that does the person using moot mean that something is not worth discussing, or it is worth debating? It's often not possible to tell from context which they mean. Both meanings are in current use; it's not a case of the wilful use of anachronisms.

With most (all?) other auto-antonyms, such as cleave and fast, the context will reveal the meaning.

the problem is that does the person using moot mean that something is not worth discussing, or it is worth debating? It's often not possible to tell from context which they mean. Both meanings are in current use; it's not a case of the wilful use of anachronisms.

I have never met a person who used "moot" to mean anything other than "not worth debating". I don't doubt that people who know its original meaning (as well as its newer meaning) will on occasion use "moot" in its older sense of "open for debate", but I think they were have to hedge the chances of their being understood by saying "in its real meaning" or some such verbiage.

Note: I don't hang out much with lawyers and when I do we seldom discuss the law.

quote:

I have never met a person who used "moot" to mean anything other than "not worth debating".

Yes, you have, you met me some years ago in London!

For several years (until not long before I joined this forum in fact) I only knew the "worthy of discussion" meaning and was quite surprised when I heard of the other definition. I know that I, personally, have used the word here in the UK without being questioned; whether my hearers knew what I intended I don't know. I don't think the two meanings are examples of the UK/US divide, like "table"; I can't tell for sure, but I don't think so.

Yes, you have, you met me some years ago in London!

But you did not use the word in my presence. I stick by my observation, that I have never observed its "open to dispute" meaning in the wild; only in book on usage. I obviously don't get around like you do, Arnie.

z, I did not, in any way, mean that I don't like the way any of the words that have evolved are used. So sorry if it came across that way. I just like the older definition of that one word...and I was agreeing with my learned friend, arnie! Period. End of story. (My hubs says that!)

As for lawyers using "moot," yes, they do have "moot" court in law school where cases are debated, so I suppose arnie and I would feel perfectly at home in a law school environment.