Why do we tend to add y or ie to names e.g.Johnny, Freddie, etc. or to slang terms for things- wheelies, undies, skivvies etc? And how long have we done it- is it a long established practice?

I've always felt is was a diminutive suffix, probably from Old English -ig. Cf. Latin -icus.

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probably from Old English -ig. .

I assume from Old German, but isn't it an adjectival suffix rather than a diminutive?

Why do we tend to add y or ie to names?

It's often a feminine form. For example, Allie would be used as a shortened version of Alexandra, but not for Alexander. And Vicky is Victoria, not Victor.

There are male names ending in -y: Gary, Barry, Harvey, etc. But these are not diminutives of more formal form. Similarly, on the female side, we have non-diminutives Abby, Hilary, Mary, Shirley.

But let's look at -y-names (or sound-alikes) that substitute for a more formal name. Some of these are male (Bennie, Bernie, Harry, Kenny, Larry, Willy), but I'd bet that far more are female (Allie, Annie, Becky, Betty, Cathy/Kathy, Cherry, Cindy, Debbie, Ginnie, Jeanie, Joanie, Judy, Lily, Lizzy, Lotty, Maggy, Margy, Nancy, Patsy, Patty, Penny, Ruthie, Sari, Shari, Susie, Vicky, Winnie).

Some can by used for either gender; typically the -y form is male and the -i or -ie form female (Johnny/Johnnie, Freddy/Freddie, Terry/Teri, Bobby/Bobbie).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: wordnerd,

It was perhaps a bit if a daft question! I was more puzzled as to why the ie or y sound was adopted at all and when. Actually I've noticed that over on this side of the Atlantic that it's quite common for males to use the ie ending to a name- US/British cultural difference again? I've never quite understood the reason to actually lengthen some names, John to Johnny being a good example, nor have I quite worked out how Bill became a diminutive of William or Bob from Robert!

In Romance languages, diminutive forms of names are often longer than official forms, e.g., Charles, Charlot, Giacomo, Giacomino, Jaime, Jaimito. Some are shorter, e.g., Giuseppe, Beppo, Francisco, Paco, (German) Josef, Sepp, Jupp. Diminutive suffixes also have connotations of cuteness, as opposed to many augmentative suffixes which have negative connotations: e.g., (Spanish) mujer 'woman', mujerón, (Italian) testa 'head', testone 'blockhead, stubborn person'.

Suffixes in Indo-European languages have similar forms and differnet functions: e.g., Latin -icus for denominal adjectives, is comparable to German -ch(en) dim. suff., the -e(i)n in -chen and -lein is comparable to Latin dim suff -inus, which is also an adjectival suff. The -l- in -lein (cf. English -ling in darling, gosling) is comparable to latin -illus, Spanish -ilo for dim. suff. Yiddish, Bavarian, and Swabian, on occasion, all use a single -l(e/i) instead of the double dim suff -lein.

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Originally posted by Erik Johansen:
It was perhaps a bit if a daft question! I was more puzzled as to why the ie or y sound was adopted at all and when. Actually I've noticed that over on this side of the Atlantic that it's quite common for males to use the ie ending to a name- US/British cultural difference again? I've never quite understood the reason to actually lengthen some names, John to Johnny being a good example, nor have I quite worked out how Bill became a diminutive of William or Bob from Robert!

Come to that Margie, Margery, Marjory, Marjorie, Madge, Mag, Maggie, Meg, Meggy, Peg, Peggy are all used as dimunitives for Margaret. (Of course some are also used as names in their own right as well.)

Maybe related to rhyming slang?

The study of names is so particular, it has its own name: onomastics.

Hardly daft, Erik. I forget who said it, but someone said that great leaps aren't usually preceded by, "Eureka," but by, "Hmmmm...that's funny..."

And why is "Jack" a nickname for "John?"

Tinman

All cat names should end in the y sound as well.

We have four: Bitsie, Henry, Billy and Sammy - a girl and three boys.

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All cat names should end in the y sound as well.

And dog names. Shu tells how he was in Israel and his friend's dog was named the color black with a "Y" in the end (something like Shahory)...Shu? In other words, "Blacky." That's exactly what we might name a dog in the U.S. It's amazing to me when I realize how similar people really are around the world.

A friend of mine had a dog named Piranña but everybody called her Fish. Sadly neither ends in -y. At the same time another person who lived nearby had a dog named Chaucer. Always made for fun when calling him.

English cricketers' Nicknames as well: Goochy, Gowery, Lambie, etc

I always hoped for that one of the two Morrisses who got caps would be Morrissey.

Perhaps the intention to be chummy is at the heart of adding a "y" (or "ie"), or of shortening the syllables of a name...to imply that I have a name for you that those only formally acquainted with you do not use. (Your boss may call you John, but you are dearer to me than to him, so I call you Johnny.) Most three-syllable names can be shortened pleasingly. Some two-syllable names can be shortened successfully, some cannot, and it must have something to do with the subjective sound of it that makes us comfortable with "Rick" for "Erick" but not with "Rin" for "Erin." I'll leave it to someone else either to give examples "proving" my theory or disproving it, maybe by exception. I have probably always noticed this because my own name has a formal quality to it, and I used to wish I had a nickname. "Nita" is a friendlier form of "Anita," but it really doesn't sound much different -- not as different as "Barb" sounds from "Barbara," you see? And formal names that already end in "y" or "ie" (Nancy or Clancy, for example) already sound friendlier, don't you think?

I can see how "Bob" is short for "Robert" and how "Rick" is short for "Erick" or "Eric" but maybe someone can tell me why "Dick" is short for "Richard".

Nobody has addressed the problem of how to spell the shortened form of names that are not quite as common. For instance, I knew two individals whose nicknames sounded like "Lou" to casual acquaintances and most people assumed that their names were "Louis" or "Lewis" but their friends knew that the real name was "Llewellyn" and that the short form was spelled "Llew". I know of a guy named "Winston" who pronounces and spells his nickname as "Wince". (It makes me wince to think about it. I think I'd insist on using the whole name instead if it was me.)
Of course, if your name was "Duncan" (ahem) you would have, early in life, discovered that if you spelled your short form as "Dunc" you'd be called "Dunce" and if you spelled it "Dunk" you'd be called "Dunkie". Ya can't win if ya try to shorten "Duncan".

Oh, I don't know. I kinda like Dunkie.

My daughter has always been quite independent; she knows what she wants, and she usually gets it. From the time she could talk, she only wanted to be called "Catherine." People would try to call her "Cathy" or "Katie," but no dice! She'd tell her pre-school classmates and teachers, "I'm not Cathy! I am Catherine." She still is Catherine, and proud of it!

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English cricketers' Nicknames

The England rugby captain's name is Martin Corry, known to his friends as Cozza.

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Originally posted by Graham Nice:
All cat names should end in the y sound as well.

We have four: Bitsie, Henry, Billy and Sammy - a girl and three boys.

I've always assumed that cats claw the furniture in revenge for the names that humans give them!
Seriously though, whilst your names for your cats aren't too bad, Graham, we do tend to lumber them with horrors- Tiddles, Fluffy, Sox, etc. If you named your kids this way (well I suppose Paula Yates did!)you'd rightfully be assumed to be off your head. Interestingly, we never call our cats or dogs more normal names like David, Paul or Michael and nor do we give people dog names- I mean do you know anyone called Blacky or Rover?- maybe Rex however!

A journalist once told me that the adoption of such terms as "Gazza" and "Hezza" was because the abbreviations fit more easily into the headlines of the red-tops than do the full names (Gasgoine; Hessletine).

It might be an urban myth but it is certainly true the the better newspapers eschew such abbreviations.

Isn't Daisy a shortened form of Margaret too? This one I can understand though, as the French for daisy is marguerite, so I believe.

It's also not to unusual if you've been named 'Dave' to be called 'Daisy' or maybe 'Dazy' around my neck of the woods, without suggesting that the recipient is gay or anything. It isn't recent as far as I can tell- I know it became common in the Red Top press to use Gazza and Hezza, etc., and for various trendy oafs (and what's the plural for oafs- oaves?- only joking!) to call themselves "Caz" for Carol, "Joolz" for Julian, etc.It actually seems to predate all that, I certainly remember it back in 1980 at least.