My new physician is from Trinidad, but has only a slight Caribbean English accent. After noticing that parts of my skull were rotting off, she referred me to a Russian dermatologist. He has a heavy accent despite living in the USA for forty years. This led to my wondering what determines whether one loses one's native phonology. I've known many Europeans and Asians who sounded American, but others who kept the sounds of their native language. Any thoughts?

It really varies. Some adults can change their accent, and some can't.

There's also the fact that the language spoken in Trinidad is English, albeit a Caribbean dialect. The Russian was born to a completely different language.

Arnie, I had considered your point, but had discounted it after thinking about Hong Kong Chinese I've known who sounded British, and others who sounded American. I've known two Hungarians, one of whom spoke several languages, who sounded like New Yorkers.

I wonder if some of us hear foreign languages through the filter of their native phonemic system, but others are like four-year-olds in hearing each language without that filter.

quote:

It really varies. Some adults can change their accent, and some can't.

Well, I think the question is what are the variables. Is it completely individual? Or are there some factors to consider. For example, some with English as a second language speak their native language at home. Is this the case with your physician, Geoff?

I guess I am more concerned, however, with the rotting skull! I assume that was a joke?

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
[QUOTE] some with English as a second language speak their native language at home. Is this the case with your physician, Geoff?

I guess I am more concerned, however, with the rotting skull! I assume that was a joke?

I don't know what the Russian speaks at home. I'm pretty sure the Trinidadian speaks English at home.

The rotting skull? Just a couple of pre-cancerous spots that she noticed and he removed.
Baldness and sunshine do not mix!

Well, that's good about your "rotting" skull. You made it sound much worse!

It is intriguing that some don't lose their accents, while others do. I am sure there are variables. I think I'd lose mine quickly as sometimes I find myself speaking in an accent when I am with people who have accents.

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I find myself speaking in an accent when I am with people who have accents.

Of course, you don't have an accent normally.

The usual language-teaching blurb on this (really just a reasonable hypothesis supported by statistics and neuroscience) is that children exposed regularly to a native speakers of a new language when age five or younger will develop an authentic accent. The reasons are technical, but anyone can observe that small children are able to hear and mimic new sounds more accurately than adults. How long one retains the ability past childhood varies widely; as Geoff notes, there are some who always seem able to hear with that 4-y.o.'s ear (few, in my experience).

Often the way in which the foreign-born speaks English merely reflects the way in which it was taught & spoken in his native land in formative years. Many from India who live in the US speak with that British-inflected lilt that is the lingua franca around Mumbai. Yet I also worked with engineers from small villages in parts further south, where English was a subject in school but not in everyday use. Their English was difficult to understand.

Some people can adapt to a new language better than others. Have you ever heard Henry Kissinger and his brother Walter talk? Henry is almost unintelligible at times while his brother is easily understood.

Here's an example of the problem accents can cause from real life.

The other day the power source blew in my computer. Geek Squad performed a diagnostic but said they didn't have the proper replacement, and it would be simpler if I ordered the part, then returned to them for installation. The clerk gave me a toll-free number to call the manufacturer, who shall remain nameless to avoid lawsuits.

The company's operator had a pronounced Indian accent, even though he insisted his name was Buddy. Buddy provided me with the proper part number (in case I had to re-order) and took my credit card info, then gave me an order number. He said the part would be delivered in three to four days. Given the many times he had to repeat himself so I could understand him, the call for a simple part took over half-an-hour.

Five days later, I called the number again to see why the part hadn't been delivered. The Americanized Indian who answered failed to find my order. I gave him the order number but he said it wasn't in their system. He said I should try another "parts store" within the company since (despite being a computer manufacturer) his computer couldn't connect with that department. He gave me the toll-free number, which I called. Their heavily-accented girl on that line said she had no record of my order. She connected me to another department (since her computer couldn't link with that department's), where another woman failed to find my order. Happily, the third woman was experienced enough to realize that Indian #1 had given me "120xxxx" to begin the order when their system was on "130xxxxx". When she punched in that sequence, the order appeared.

While this may only take several minutes to relate, the actual encounter verged on 50-60 minutes. I was totally exasperated but pleased that at least the order was found. I asked when I could expect the part and she went to check the FedEx routing slip. She came back and said it had been delivered. But I insisted it hadn't since my wife had gone onto the porch an hour earlier to get the paper and there was nothing there. So I sent my wife to check again and there was a box with the part, delivered while I wasted an hour untangling accents.

¿Que?

Proof, that is the experience many of us have, time and time again. It's more a problem of business management, I think, than one of accents.

I have a very bad ear for accents. If we go to dinner and the waiter has a thick accent, my kids will cringe because they know I will embarrass them. Indeed, my eldest will try to "save" me by ordering for me or answering questions for me, which is exasperating to me. I am not sure what it is about me and accents. Perhaps it's being raised in a more rural area of Wisconsin where there were few accents?

My cable provider boasts that it hasn't outsourced its call centres and it hasn't - at least not unless Scotland leaves the UK. Having a Scottish call centre does mean, though, that we might speak to people with pretty impenetrable accents just as we would if the call centre were in India.

I agree that my experience is an exhibition of corporate mismanagement more than "accent" problems. Seems just an opportunity for me to vent.

Bethree's reply has got me wondering if the same phenomenon is at work in language acquisition as that which causes patterning in some animals? When a duck hatches and sees a human, that human is "Mama." In a human infant, hearing two or three languages is all associated with the one Mama. Possible?

Arnie, I hear two very different accents here in Indiana: the Northern one is fairly low inflection, the Southern one being high inflection/Southern drawl - and damned near unintelligible at times. (It's where the Scots settled!) ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff:
Bethree's reply has got me wondering if the same phenomenon is at work in language acquisition as that which causes patterning in some animals? When a duck hatches and sees a human, that human is "Mama." In a human infant, hearing two or three languages is all associated with the one Mama. Possible?

I'm not sure how imprinting is like language acquisition.

It's probably not imprinting, but it is a similar concept, I think. That is, the baby is associating the languages with the mother (and his normalcy) because that's what he knows.