In Bierma's language article, someone said that he had learned "farther" to mean distance and "further" to mean advancement to a greater degree, such as time. The AHD says, "According to a relatively recent rule, however, farther should be reserved for physical distance and further for nonphysical, metaphorical advancement."

Do you use these 2 words interchangeably? I usually do.

I have heard of such a "rule", but I'm sure like all such pseudo-rules it has little basis in fact. 'Farther' is a much rarer word (22 million hits to 830 million), and I never use it myself.

Restricting it to distance, there's still a great disparity but 'farther' gains. Now, just searching for 'further away' gets 2.9 million hits against to 1.8 million for 'farther away'. However, many of the top hits are lyrics. Filtering out with "-lyrics" gives us about 500 000 for U, 60 000 for A.

So it looks like the pseudo-rule has half a grain of truth, in that U is the choice for metaphorical distance. Although I don't actually use 'farther', I could only do so for literal distance.

I agree with everything you say, Aput, except that I do use "farther" quite a bit. I wonder if this is another British/American difference, or an Aput/Kalleh difference. I will say that when I use "farther," it usually is about distance.

While I never assume that what I was taught in school is above reproach, I well remember being taught in English class (in America -- Ohio, to be precise) that "farther" was to be used when describing mathematically measurable distance and "further" was to be used when describing advances not measurable numerically.

Does anyone recall this scene in the wonderful movie Finding Forrester? The pipsqueak teacher has been bullying a student. Finally fellow-student Jamal, a main character, intervenes.

Professor: Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention? Please, if you don't mind. "Ere sin could blight or sorrow fade / Death came with friendly care / The opening bud to heaven convey'd" -- How nice of you to join us. That's not part of the poem. -- "And bade it blossom there."
. . . .Anyone? A little more early morning reticence than usual. Mr. Coleridge. Please. How many students would you say are here today?
Student: I'm not sure. Professor: Perhaps you could humour us with a guess. STUDENT Thirty?
Professor: And of that not one person knows the author of that passage. I find that remarkable, don't you? Perhaps we should back into this. In looking at this, what, if any conclusions, might we be able to draw?
Student: You mean about the author? About anything. Do any of the words strike you as unusual? Feel free to view this as the appropriate time for a response.
"Ere."
And why is that unusual? Because it sounds old.
It does sound old, doesn't it? Do you know why it sounds old? Because it is old. More than ___ years old. Written before your father was born, before his father was born. But that still does not excuse the fact that you don't know who wrote it, now, does it?
I'm sorry, sir, I don't ...
You, of all people here, should know who wrote that passage. And do you know why, Mr. Coleridge? I repeat, do you know why?
Jamal: Just say your name, man.
Excuse me. Did you have something to contribute?
Jamal: I just said that he should say his name.
And why would it be helpful for Mr. Coleridge to say his name?
Because that's who wrote it.
Very good, Mr. Wallace. Perhaps your skills do extend a bit farther than basketball.
. . . .If we can turn to page... You may be seated, Mr. Coleridge. Turn to page ...
Further.
I'm sorry?
[color:brown][b]You said my skills extend "farther" than the basketball court

This message has been edited. Last edited by: <wordnerd>,

Oh, thanks, Wordnerd! I had forgotten about that wonderful movie's discussion of "further" and "farther."

Hehe. I like seeing bullies get their come-uppance - like the bar scene in Good Will Hunting when he trashes a pretentious student whose 'knowledge' (with which he's humiliating someone ignorant of the subject) contains no original thought whatsoever.

I've thought about the 'further/farther' thing before, so I know that I use both 'further' and 'farther' interchangeably for measurable/literal distance. It wasn't until reading this thread though that I realised I only ever use 'further' for the metaphorical meaning.

I don't recall ever being explicitly taught that; it just feels wrong to use 'farther' in the latter sense. Of course, if the rule is that only 'farther' should be used for the former, that doesn't explain why it doesn't feel wrong to me to use both.

My two penn'orth, anyway .

Interesting, Cat, that you say it just feels right to use it that way. I recently read something about that, and I will try to find it. I think it was in Language Hat or someplace similar. It said that sometimes we don't have written rules about usages, but that people just use the words a certain way because it feels right.

I think that was Geoff Pullum on Going it alone that you're recalling. However, his point was not that there are occasionally patterns that we are sensitive to by ear; but that all of language is like that and it pervades overwhelmingly more of our knowledge than we might think. Actually, he doesn't explicitly say that, but I'm sure he believes it.

Just as we learn as infants by hearing it that the past tense of go is went, so we learn that we can say go it alone and to a lesser extent going it alone, but not *went it alone or *gone it alone. This example is not one that anyone would ever think of writing out as a rule (whereas go ~ went has to be in every elementary grammar), but this statistical fact is just as much a part of our unconscious, early-learned knowledge of how go works.

Aput, would this be sprachgefühl?

quote:

I think that was Geoff Pullum on Going it alone that you're recalling.

Not that it makes any difference, really, but I don't think that was the place, aput. I just tried searching and couldn't find it. Oh well!

First, an observation:

I'm cautious about choosing the word that "feels right." One example is that most people I know feel that saying, "Tell them you were invited by Alice and I," sounds more "right" than "Tell them you were invited by Alice and me."

Second, a story:

When my son was a freshman in high school, he had a very poor algebra teacher. Not only was she a lousy teacher but she was also personally disliked by everyone at school who had to spend any time in her presence. By the time May rolled around, there was not one student who had not been treated unfairly by her at one time or another. Her English usage was awful, and my son, in defense of himself and of others who had been tormented by her that day, gave in to the temptation to correct her grammar -- some particular mistake she made consistently.

When the class laughed, she sneered, "I am not an English major."

"Neither am I," said my son.

quote:

most people I know feel that saying, "Tell them you were invited by Alice and I," sounds more "right" than "Tell them you were invited by Alice and me."

How apt of you to use an I/me example while we have an active thread titled "Is it just me". [shudder-icon]