I know we have discussed this before but I was tempted to raise the topic again following a point made by Bill Bryson when he spoke at the ITT Convention Grand Canary recently

As you will know, Bill is a great apologist for England and has returned to live here following a brief stay back in the USA. One of the things he spoke about was the differences in the way we communicate and especially about humour, suggesting that much British humour is impenetrable to Americans.

He then told an anecdote about something that happened during his recent sojourn in the USA. It had been a windy night and branch had fallen from his neighbour's tree. When Bill went out his neighbour was cutting the branch into smaller pieces and loading them onto the roof-rack of his car. Bill called out and said, "Hey Fred, I see you're camouflaging your car".

At this point the audience (mainly British) laughed and Bill went on...my neighbour looked at me in puzzlement and said, "No Bill, a branch fell off my tree and I'm just taking it down to the tip"

More laughter from the British audience at the thought that anyone could possibly think that Bill was being serious.

My question to US readers is, would Bill's remark to his neighbour have seemed funny to you or would you have simply thought it a strange comment?

As Bill Bryson was born and raised in America before relocating to the UK the first time, you'd think he'd know when to use British humour™ and when not to stuff it. My suggestion is that there's something in the water in England that retards a person's reason.

Bryson uses the same annecdote in one of his books. (I can't remember which one.) As I remember it he was using it to poke fun at a specific person's misunderstanding rather than suggesting it was an instance of some kind of generic difference between Americans and Brits.

Of course that doesn't mean he hasn't rejigged it since.

quote:

Of course that doesn't mean he hasn't rejigged it since.

That's quite likely; most professional speakers have a small repertoire - sometimes only the one speech. They believe, reasonably enough, that they will not often be speaking to the same audience twice and, like the travelling repertory groups of years ago, do not need to change their material often - if at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard English:

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Of course that doesn't mean he hasn't rejigged it since.

That's quite likely; most professional speakers have a small repertoire - sometimes only the one speech. They believe, reasonably enough, that they will not often be speaking to the same audience twice and, like the travelling repertory groups of years ago, do not need to change their material often - if at all.

I remember the comedian Jasper Carrott first appearing on the TV with a six part thirty-minute program called (I think) An Audience with Jasper Carrott. Up until then he had been a moderately successful comedian around the clubs of the Midlands. Some years later an interviewer asked him why the quality of his material was no longer as good as it had been. His reply was that the six part series, three hours of material, had used up ten years worth of club material because now everybody had heard it already.

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My question to US readers is, would Bill's remark to his neighbour have seemed funny to you or would you have simply thought it a strange comment?

May I answer as an outsider to both audiences.
Bill Bryson is a favourite of the talk show circuit down here and delivers his patter of the slightly self deprecating Yank with polished glee.
I bought one of his books and found it to be mildly entertaining for about ten pages and then mildly irritating for about another ten pages and I won't know anything else about his writings that I am required to pay for.

When Billy boy is in Australia he manages to be insulting to both Yanks and Poms and I just don't find this funny at all. I shudder to think of the impression of Australia that he gives considering that he thinks that Wagga is the outback and that kangaroos and koalas are to die for.

Bill could have chosen a thousand examples of surreal British humour relying on word play and referential association that did not involve Bill Bryson, esq., centre stage.
Monty Python's infamous Venetian Travelogue or the even more famous Dead Parrot or more accurately for Bill, 'An 'ole in t' road. We used to dream of 'ole in t' road' would have illustrated his point.
The Two Ronnies with, 'That's goodnight from me and good night from him' (or similar, I didn't google for accuracy) does the same.

This joke is an attempt by Bill Bryson to denigrate Americans as being thick but it just comes across as being mean.
British audiences are notoriously well mannered and Bill had a captive audience of loyal fans who paid good money to see him either as a direct paymant for entry or as the cost of attending and they wanted to be entertained and so entered into the spirit of the performance.
They laughed and clapped but I will bet you that they would not now be able to explain why they did not boo that 'joke'as being in extremely poor taste and just not close enough to reality o be even close to funny.

Bill Bryson did not stop to think that Americans are being force fed a diet of fear of being attacked so that war jokes are not high on their agenda. Or did he?
Why the hell did Bill decide to tell a very oblique war joke. Camouflaging a car with a single tree branch??? Camouflaging it in what way?? The car is on black bitumen so the joke may have worked had the neighbour been strapping grey or black carpet to the roof.

The joke would have been mildly funny had the subject matter related to the early or late disposal of a christmas tree or had Bill insulted his neighbour's pruning skills but the combination of the war joke and uncamouflaging camouflage left the neighbour quite reasonably wondering about his odd neighbour.

Bill Bryson is self deprecating of his rejected culture and is making a motza insulting America and Americans in a way that would be quite repugnant for a resident American in America telling jokes to Americans and doing it to anybody with the coin and potential inclination to part with it for one of his slickly written travelogues.

It is my observation based solely on the fact that I find most American humour to be culturally inaccessable that American humor is based on manipulating situations while British humour relies on manupulating words and making surreal observational references.

.,,

Interesting take there .,, (how do you pronounce that by the way? )

Until this moment it never occurred to me for a second that there was any kind of war reference implicit in the joke. Nor, as it happens did it ever occur to me that there was any intention to make the American in the joke sound stupid. I thought that it was simply an exagerated attempt to indicate that either the guy in the joke specifically (as I recall reading it) or Americans in general as Richard reports it from the speech, to be more literal-minded than the British.

However there is another interpretation possible and here is where I can believe the conversation really took place.


Bryson (seeing tree and trying to be funny):Hey Fred, I see you're camouflaging your car

Fred (Thinking , uh-oh it's Bryson again making some lame joke, I know I'll have a bit of fun with him, pretend I don't get it) : No Bill, a branch fell off my tree and I'm just taking it down to the tip

Bryson walks away thinking "What a doofus!"*
Fred drives away thinking "What a doofus!"

Incidentally, I think the joke originally comes from one of the books predating 9-11, though I might be mistaken about that.


*Or more likely, "Hey, I can put that in a book!"

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BobHale,

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They laughed and clapped but I will bet you that they would not now be able to explain why they did not boo that 'joke'as being in extremely poor taste and just not close enough to reality o be even close to funny.

Well, I was there, I am British and I can tell you that we all laughed because the joke was funny and not because we had paid money and were trying to be polite.

The Institute of Travel and Tourism is the professional body for the travel industry in the UK and its members are mainly very senior and very well-travelled people. They are easy enough to please but not easy to bullshit.

We have had speakers who have failed to hit the mark and they have been told of their failure in very straightforward terms. Bill Bryson's speech was judged to be one of the better ones we have had.

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Well, I was there, I am British and I can tell you that we all laughed because the joke was funny and not because we had paid money and were trying to be polite.

The Institute of Travel and Tourism is the professional body for the travel industry in the UK and its members are mainly very senior and very well-travelled people. They are easy enough to please but not easy to bullshit.

We have had speakers who have failed to hit the mark and they have been told of their failure in very straightforward terms. Bill Bryson's speech was judged to be one of the better ones we have had.

I have performed poetry in many venues and have seen many audiences politely clap and cheer the most asinine poetry and jokes.

I am glad that you can speak for the entire audience and state that you all found the joke funny.
It is amazing that no audience member felt even a tinge of a qualm of a doubt as to the intended victim of the joke and that everybody felt quite happy to laugh at the expense of Americans and their assumed thickness.
How do you reckon the joke would have gone down in Dublin if the uncomprehending branch carter was a Paddy and the intelligent observer a Pom?

Perhaps you could explain to me why the joke is so outrageously funny because I just can't see it and I am a huge fan of surreal humour.

.,,

Well I wasn't present but I'll state my personal prejudice up front - I am a fan of Bryson's writing which I find especially inoffensive.

What's puzzling me here is your interpretation of the joke. I really can't see at all that it's making out the guy with the branch to be thick/stupid/unintelligent. Even if we take the story at face value ALL it is saying is that there was a miscommunication between two individuals due to one making a lame joke and the other one not seeing it as a joke because it was so lame.

If the story had been told the other way round with me not understanding an American joke, (which has happened many, many times) I wouldn't feel someone was being offensive to me.

The story isn't outrageously funny, it's very slightly amusing. Just as it's very slightly amusing if I tell you that on my first trip to the US, in a rest room at a Florida gas station I spent five minutes trying to figure out how to make the thing flush before leaving the cubicle at which point I was out of range of the sensor and it flushed automatically.

Will I feel offended if people in America tell that (true) story about me to all their friends as an example of how dumb the English are? No, of course not. I felt dumb.

My interpretation of the story is that guy understood perfectly well that Bryson was making a joke, that Bryson knew that, that the guy figured no one with a decent sense of humour would make a joke that weak and made his deliberately "puzzled" response to avoid giving the impression that he thought it was funny, that Bryson knew that too and the the point of the story is that funny or not most English people would have laughed - as you yourself have noted - out of politeness.

The cultural difference being pointed to is NOT that Brits are brilliantly sophisticated wits and Yanks are thick-as-a-brick yokels, it's that Brits will laugh at anything and Yanks will tell you if your joke sucks.

If anything it's an anti-Brit joke. And no that doesn't offend me.

Perhaps we should wait for an American to respond now.

What about an Spaniard?
I never saw Bill on stage or anything, but I read one of his books. Found it entertaining at first (two chapters or so) and then downright boring.
The rest of the chapters were variations of the first two and when a joke is repeated seventeen times, well, it is boring. I didn't find the camouflage joke that funny.
But sense of humour is different in different countries.
I took two Irish friends of mine to a show performed by some of the best Spanish speaking showmen.
At one moment one of them said "the best way to deal with temptation is to fall into it". We found it funny, but my two Irish friends left the theater. They were actually outraged.

quote:

I am glad that you can speak for the entire audience and state that you all found the joke funny.

My assessment of the audience (many of the members of which I know personally) is, I suggest, as accurate as is yours of the audience's reaction to the asinine poetry and jokes. We are both making assumptions based on our knowledge and interpretation of the situation.

And nowhere did I suggest that the story was "outrageously funny" or that it was even a joke. It was a humorous story and as such amused the audience.

To pick up Bob's point, Biull's story was one of two anecdotes in a speech which he was using to illustrate his contention that Americans don't understand British humour and, indeed, that after many years he himself doesn't always understand some of our idiosyncratic linguistic foibles.

So, if the double misunderstanding arose (as well it might have done) it wasn't the point that Bill was trying to make. His point was that his American neighbour appeared not to understand that he was making a joke whereas his neighbour in Norfolk would have.

As a completely irrelevent aside, Bill Bryson presented a short TV series based on Notes From A Small Island and I found him to be a rather dull presenter even though I enjoy his writing.

As another short aside I read Notes From A Small Island and Paul Theroux's book on a similar subject "The Kingdom By the Sea" in consecutive weeks. Both poke quite a lot of fun at the British but Bryson's book I found to be gently mocking in a rather fond sort of way and Theroux's I found to be quite vicious with a rather unpleasant edge to it - though unquestionably better written.

The short answer is it's horses for courses. You like what you like and you don't like what you don't like and there's no sense at all in getting riled by what someone else does or doesn't like.

quote:

My question to US readers is, would Bill's remark to his neighbour have seemed funny to you or would you have simply thought it a strange comment?

As an American, I'd have thought it somewhat humorous, much like Bob. I wouldn't have, dot dot comma, thought of it as related to war in any way.

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t is my observation based solely on the fact that I find most American humour to be culturally inaccessable that American humor is based on manipulating situations while British humour relies on manupulating words and making surreal observational references.

I found this comment intriguing, and I think you are right. The Brits, in general, do seem to enjoy humor based on manipulating words more than the typical American; that most definitely isn't the case with this site, of course, because we all love words. That's the thing...I find it hard to generalize "humor" for different cultures.

The poor neighbor--they never give the guy who plays the straight man any credit.

Nobody is bothering to examine the 'joke'.
My question is this;
If the joke were told in Dublin and the bloke with the branch was Irish and the bloke with the wise mouth was English who would laugh?
Jokes are very dangerous items when based on cultural perceptions.

One offering here is that the joke is poking fun at the English leaving us with the scene of an English audience applauding and responding positively to a joke at their expense about their habit of applauding and responding positively to lame jokes.
There is a hint of lack of understanding of the universality of humanity as I am of the opinion that Yanks are just as likely to sit and clap politely as Poms or Skips or Paddys.

.,,

quote:

If the joke were told in Dublin and the bloke with the branch was Irish and the bloke with the wise mouth was English who would laugh?

But it wasn't.

Although I have often found that the Irish tell the best Irish jokes.

The Irish tell Kerryman jokes. I don't know whom the people in Co. Kerry tell their jokes against.

Like BobH, I enjoy a Bill Bryson book now and then, do not find it boring after a few pages, but take it as light, recreational reading. I smiled at the joke quoted by Richard, though I imagined that if it were a real situation, the neighbor's reply would not have come from a misunderstanding of the silly line, but from his exasperation at having car damage to pay for and a mess to clean up besides, and now this jocular neighbor. Whereupon the appropriate response would've been "Yeah, I wish."

Of course, no American would say "taking it down to the tip." That's specifically British language. An American would say "cutting it down to the nub" or something.

Welcome to Wordcraft Dot-com-com, and I hope you've brought a good supply of BP meds, cause this little conversation was nothing!

Wordmatic

quote:

Originally posted by arnie:
The Irish tell Kerryman jokes. I don't know whom the people in Co. Kerry tell their jokes against.

Co. Galway!!!

quote:

Originally posted by wordmatic:
Of course, no American would say "taking it down to the tip." That's specifically British language. An American would say "cutting it down to the nub" or something.
Wordmatic

Ah, now there's an actual US/UK misunderstanding.

"Taking it down to the tip" doesn't mean "cutting it to the nub", it means "taking it to the dump".

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Originally posted by .,,:
Nobody is bothering to examine the 'joke'.

.,,

I thought I'd examined it in some detail. Rather more detail than it deserves in fact.

I am totally baffled by this whole conversation and will now sit on the sidelines and hope that I get some clue from watching the rest of the game.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BobHale,

quote:

Originally posted by .,,:
Nobody is bothering to examine the 'joke'.
My question is this;
If the joke were told in Dublin and the bloke with the branch was Irish and the bloke with the wise mouth was English who would laugh?
Jokes are very dangerous items when based on cultural perceptions.

One offering here is that the joke is poking fun at the English leaving us with the scene of an English audience applauding and responding positively to a joke at their expense about their habit of applauding and responding positively to lame jokes.
There is a hint of lack of understanding of the universality of humanity as I am of the opinion that Yanks are just as likely to sit and clap politely as Poms or Skips or Paddys.

.,,

Dot comma comma, to go back to the original question.
I can't know if an American would find Bill's remark funny.
What I can tell you is what would have been the answer if the neighbour had been a Spaniard.
"Do you know where I'm going to stick this branch up, eh?"
The audience would laugh at the thought of Bill running across the garden with a branch coming out of you know where.
(I'm not sure if the word is allowed to be written or not)

quote:

(I'm not sure if the word is allowed to be written or not)

Perhaps a*s?

If you won't risk an ass, you can asterisk.

<sorry; couldn't resist>

I saw some very nice asses when I was in Grand Canary last month. Many are still used in the inland villages in preference to cars. Very nice and gentle animals.

Incidentally, in Grand Canary, when it's cloudy the Canarians call it "Donkey-belly weather" This comes about because, when donkeys were the method of transport for everyone, in the heat of the day the rider would take a siesta in the only patch of shade - under the donkey's belly. So clouds = shade = donkey-belly.

quote:

Welcome to Wordcraft Dot-com-com, and I hope you've brought a good supply of BP meds, cause this little conversation was nothing!

Wordmatic

Thank you Wordmatic. Your sentiments are reciprocated in kind.

I feel disappointed to have indicated that I am at all upset by this discussion. I have not said bloody or bugger or damn. I have not stamped my foot and called for mum.

Could you please point out the posts I have made that indicated to you that I require medication because I can assure you that it must be a cultural misinterpretation and I would be fascinated to see which words and or phrases I have used that have been so misinterpreted.

See ya,
.,,

quote:

Originally posted by BobHale:
"Taking it down to the tip" doesn't mean "cutting it to the nub", it means "taking it to the dump".

Wow. Thanks. I'll have to study British English as a second language.

WM

The 'tip' is the garbage tip as in this is where you tip your bucket so the garbage falls out.

.,,

quote:

Originally posted by Hic et ubique:

quote:

(I'm not sure if the word is allowed to be written or not)

Perhaps a*s?

If you won't risk an ass, you can asterisk.

<sorry; couldn't resist>

All right.
I've been so much reprimanded by my outrageous use of forbidden words (words which are completely OK in Spanish) that now I'm afraid to write them just in case someone jumps on at me again.
Political correctness sucks.
Arse.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard English:
I saw some very nice asses when I was in Grand Canary last month.

Glad you specified you meant the animals.
At first I thought you meant the female asses that can be seen at the nudist beaches!

quote:

Originally posted by .,,:

quote:

Welcome to Wordcraft Dot-com-com, and I hope you've brought a good supply of BP meds, cause this little conversation was nothing!

Wordmatic

Thank you Wordmatic. Your sentiments are reciprocated in kind.

I feel disappointed to have indicated that I am at all upset by this discussion. I have not said bloody or bugger or damn. I have not stamped my foot and called for mum.

Could you please point out the posts I have made that indicated to you that I require medication because I can assure you that it must be a cultural misinterpretation and I would be fascinated to see which words and or phrases I have used that have been so misinterpreted.

See ya,
.,,

I didn't get that one.
What does BP stands for?
The only BP known in Spain is the big green BP letters on top of British Petroleum stations.

quote:

What does BP stands for?

Blood Pressure.

quote:

At first I thought you meant the female asses that can be seen at the nudist beaches!

We don't generally use the word in UK English. Those who do are using a US import. Thus the following limerick only works properly in US English.

There was a young girl from Madras
Who had a magnificent ass.
No, not what you think,
All rounded and pink -
It was grey, had long ears and ate grass.

quote:

Originally posted by Alexa Cohen:

quote:

Originally posted by .,,:

quote:

Welcome to Wordcraft Dot-com-com, and I hope you've brought a good supply of BP meds, cause this little conversation was nothing!

Wordmatic

Thank you Wordmatic. Your sentiments are reciprocated in kind.

I feel disappointed to have indicated that I am at all upset by this discussion. I have not said bloody or bugger or damn. I have not stamped my foot and called for mum.

Could you please point out the posts I have made that indicated to you that I require medication because I can assure you that it must be a cultural misinterpretation and I would be fascinated to see which words and or phrases I have used that have been so misinterpreted.

See ya,
.,,

I didn't get that one.
What does BP stands for?
The only BP known in Spain is the big green BP letters on top of British Petroleum stations.

'Twould appear that m'learned friend Wordcraft is concerned that I am upset or am in need of lowering my Blood Pressure with drugs and I am still waiting for the examples of my pique that could lead to this extrapolatory bow being drawn.

.,,

quote:

There was a young girl from Madras
Who had a magnificent ass.
No, not what you think,
All rounded and pink -
It was grey, had long ears and ate grass.

That rings a bell.
O Paddy was an Irishman,
He came from Donegal,
And all the girls they loved him well,
Though he only had one ball,
For the Irish girls are girls of sense,
And they didn't mind at all,
For, as Paddy pointed out to them,
One was better than none at all.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alexa Cohen,

(can't resist)
WWII vintage
(tune: Colonel Bogey March)

Hitler has only got one ball.
Goering has two but they're quite small.
Himmler is somewhat simmlar,
But poor old Goebballs
Has no balls
At all.

(Edited to correct tune source) )

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jerry thomas,

A maiden from Abrystwyth
Took some grain to the mill to make grist with.
The miller's son Jack
Laid her flat on her back
And united the parts that they pissed with.

O, Blodwyn was a Welsh girl,
She came from Cardiff city,
And all the boys they loved her well,
Though she only had one titty.
For the Welsh boys there,
Are boys of sense,
And didn't they all agree,
One titty is better than two sometimes,
For it leaves you one hand free.

If Wun Hung Lo met two gals from Donegal which gal would be done and what would be done with the remaining gal whose slowness in undoing was her undoing?

.,,

O folderol and folderay,
A sailor's life is grim,
So you're only too delighted,
if you get a bit excited,
Whether it's with her or him.

quote:

Originally posted by Alexa Cohen:
O, Blodwyn was a Welsh girl,
She came from Cardiff city,
And all the boys they loved her well,
Though she only had one titty.
For the Welsh boys there,
Are boys of sense,
And didn't they all agree,
One titty is better than two sometimes,
For it leaves you one hand free.

One hand free for this and that
One hand free for me
One hand free for doing that leaves
One hand free for thee
Now if we're not to be surficed of hands
With one hand waving free
We'd best be more than one alone
Yet may be less than three

.,,

quote:

(tune: Bridge over River Kwai)

I think the original name for the tune was Colonel Bogey March.

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I think the original name for the tune was Colonel Bogey March.

It is, indeed.