I know that early on (in August) we had a wonderful thread by wordcrafter on Yiddish words. However, I am reading a wonderful book by Geoffrey Nunberg (NPR's Fresh Air), entitled, "The Way We Talk Now". In it he has a great discussion of why Yiddish words seem to be so international. One of his theories is that they just sound so foreign. He mentions finding over 400 press citations for the word tsoris (trouble or aggravation, especially with family). He was particularly amused by a story in the Washington Post that talked about the tsoris that Queen Elizabeth had with her family. He suspects, though is not sure, that Yiddish is not that commonly used in England. He did, however, relish the thought of the Queen saying, "Oh, Philip, if you knew the tsoris I've had with my mishpokhe (family)."
Is he right? Is Yiddish uncommon in England? ============================================= I'm sure it wasn't uncommon in the past. After all, didn't Sheridan write, She schtups to Conquer?
Yes, it is uncommon over here. Yiddish isn't used outside the Jewish community in the same way as it is in New York, say. Even among Jews it is not often used, I understand.
I agree. We have some fairly large Jewish communities (including some very strict Orthodox ones) but Neither Hebrew nor Yiddish would be heard much outside of them.
Anyone who doesn't speak English in England will need to stay within his or her own community to be understood since few of us speak any other languages. Hence most immigrants quickly learn to speak and use English.
Richard English
Posts: 8038 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UK
Now, arnie and Richard, I can definitely see that it isn't used that much over there...because almost nobody speaks it anymore as his/her language. However, the words are quite descriptive and fun so they are often intertwined within our language here. That was Nunberg's point; he was surprised to see it used across the nation (and world) in very nonJewish areas, such as Iowa or North Dakota. However, it must not have caught on in England from what each of you is saying.
quote:Originally posted by Richard English: Anyone who doesn't speak English in England will need to stay within his or her own community to be understood since few of us speak any other languages.
Odd you should say this since I thought just the opposite was true seeing as how so many different languages are spoken so close by.
A visitor from, say, 300 miles away from you would possibly speak French, Spanish, German, Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, and/or any of at least a half dozen other European languages thereby exposing you to them and making it more likely that you yourself would be multi-lingual. On the other hand, a visitor 300 miles away from me might speak English with a southern accent, English with a Texas accent, etc. etc. which is, of course, not quite the same situation.
The nearest foreign country to me is Canada and while I can speak a smattering of the language ("Howzit goin', eh?") I'm not what you'd consider fluent.
CJ's point might be valid if the UK were physically part of the continent of Europe, instead of being offshore islands. Despite the opening of the Channel Tunnel, that 22 miles of sea between England and France is a real barrier.
English is spoken by a large proportion of people in the world these days for various reasons, therefore we don't have much incentive to learn other languages. Many people in Europe speak their native language and one other - in most cases the "other" is English.
quote:Originally posted by arnie: Despite the opening of the Channel Tunnel, that 22 miles of sea between England and France is a real barrier.
Really? That strikes me as odd though, putting the shoe on the other foot, it's a well-known fact that the large majority of New Yorkers have never visited the Statue of Liberty. What percentage of, say, 50-year-old British citizens would you say have never left the island?
I may have been giving y'all more credit for being continental (in the true sense of the word) that you actually deserve based on the performers in Monty Python's Flying Circus. With the exception of Terry Gilliam (the one Yank, natch) they all seemed to have at least a bit of a grasp of both French and German (John Cleese seemed the most fluent) and all could rattle off gibberish like a native speaker.
I don't think the Pythons are typical examples of Brits. I'm not sure, but I suspect they are all product of the public school system (i.e. private schools) and certainly of the country's top colleges. Graham Chapman studied medicine at Emmanuel College, Cambridge. John Cleese taught at his old prep school (private) for two years while waiting to go to Cambridge's Downing College. Eric Idle majored in English and went to Pembroke College, Cambridge. Terry Jones studied at St. Edmund Hall College, Oxford, Michael Palin attended Brasenose College, Oxford University.
I don't know the figures for Brits who have never been abroad, but I'd hazard a guess at 25%. The percentage is decreasing all the time as younger people tend to holiday abroad, but older folks stay at home. However, of the people who have gone abroad, very few needed to use a foreign language - the resort they travelled to caters for British tourists and pretty well everybody with whom they came into contact spoke English.
I have learnt from the many conversations I have had both on and off this board that most Americans have the idea the Europe is an entity much like the USA (which is how the US media seem to portray it). Thus many Americans asssume that Eurpoean countries are no more different one from another than are US States.
This is quite untrue. There is a far greater difference between ANY two European countries than there is between the most diverse of US States. Apart from climate, there is little real difference between, say, New England and New Mexico. The language is the same; the food's the same; the hotels are the same; the attitudes and beliefs are much the same.
In Europe there are only two countries whose native tongue is English - the UK and Ireland - and, as CJ has pointed out, there are many, many other spoken as native tongues. Drive across the border from France to Belgium and you'll find countries that have no more in common with one another than does the USA with, say, Mexico. They just happen to share the same continent.
If the recent Iraqi war has done anything, it should have made it clear to the US that Europe is not a single entity in its beliefs and values. Sadly, I suspect that it hasn't!
Richard English
Posts: 8038 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UK
quote:Originally posted by Richard English: I have learnt from the many conversations I have had both on and off this board that most Americans have the idea the Europe is an entity much like the USA (which is how the US media seem to portray it). True, but this is similar to the way we (and, I'm sure, you over there as well) tend to personify various entities in order to better to deal with them. To say, for example "Wall Street is jittery" is, on its surface, ridiculous but its meaning of "the business world is unsettled" is not. To say "Europe thinks this or that way" is, as you point out, a gross error often made by the media in their efforts to oversimplify a complex entity.
Thus many Americans asssume that Eurpoean countries are no more different one from another than are US States. Many, yes, but I truly believe not a majority. Not by a long shot.
Apart from climate, there is little real difference between, say, New England and New Mexico. The language is the same; the food's the same; the hotels are the same; the attitudes and beliefs are much the same. Oh, my goodness, wrong-o, good friend! The language, yes, of course, and the hotels and food if you stay within a few miles of the interstate. BUT! New England and New Mexico the same?? I would counter that Spain and Portugal, aside from their different languages, are carbon copies of each other compared to the two regions of the U.S. you've chosen! And ditto, to a slightly lesser degree, England & Scotland, Austria & Germany, and any of the Scandinavian countries with each other. Both the U.S. and the European communities are facing a certain homogenization, modern times being what they are but, in reality, "The U.S. thinks that..." can be just as incorrect as "Europe thinks that..." and for the same reasons.
My original point was that given the relative proximity of, as you say, a wide variety of cultures and, specifically, languages, it seems that the liklihood any European being multi-lingual would be greater than his or her American counterpart. This is hugely to your credit and, despite the fact that the English language is so widespread and that England is not "attached" to the continent, I still maintain that your average Englishman is more comfortable dealing with foreign languages than the average bozo I encounter over here.
Driving through New México a few years ago I stopped for gasoline and cigarettes. Guessing that the attendant at the gas station understood Spanish, I asked, "¿Venden cigarros aqui?"
Answer: "No señor, no los tenemos, pero you can get 'em on the other side of the street."
I doubt that such bilingual discourse is likely to happen in New England.
Posts: 6708 | Location: Kehena Beach, Hawaii, U.S.A.
I have been to all the places cited and can assure you that Spain and Portugal are not carbon copies of one another - they are more different than are any two States of the USA (possibly excepting Hawaii).
They have a different language (very different); they have quite different cultures; they have very different cuisines; they have different laws and, until quite recently, different currencies. Portugal is no more like Spain than Spain is like France.
I meant to treat the UK as one country in my statement although England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are separate countries. In each of them English is the main language and they are more similar than any other European countries.
Scandinavian countries have a great affinity one with another but even they each have different languages (in the case of Finland, very different). Again they all have different customs and legislatures and not all of them are in the EU.
The United States are united by many things, language being one of the most unifying (although there are many others). There is no United States of Europe and I doubt there ever will be.
Richard English
Posts: 8038 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UK
Having just come back from Malta (a completely bilingual society) I would like to make another observation about this topic.
In Malta the inhabitants all learn Maltese at their mother's knee but learn English as soon as they start school or even before. Malta has two official langauges - Maltese and English.
Maltese is 80% Arabic and is thus a very different language from English (far more than is, say, Spanish).
However, it is quite the norm in conversation for both languages to be used with the speakers choosing to use whichever language happens to spring to mind. Yesterday I was listening to some teenage girls chatting and this was clearly happening. I do not speak Arabic so cannot translate or transliterate the Arabic words, but one snatch of conversation went, "....Arabic blah blah blah silky trousers and tee shirt arabic blah blah blah..."
I suggest that this practice has nothing to do with physical location and everything to do with multi-lingualism.
Richard English
Posts: 8038 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UK
quote:Originally posted by Richard English: I do not speak Arabic so cannot translate or transliterate the Arabic words, but one snatch of conversation went, "....Arabic blah blah blah silky trousers and tee shirt arabic blah blah blah..."
Welcome back, R.E. and sorry to have to tell you that you apparently missed an opportunity for what could have been an interesting adventure. I say this based on knowing a lttle bit of the Arabic language myself.
In the above quote, the first Arabic "blah blah blah" (an idiom) translates to "Hey, check out the old British guy in the Rolls Royce! I'd like to dress him up in..." and the second "blah blah blah," depending on the region the teenage girls grew up in, has something to do with removing said silky trousers etc and what might follow.
I just saw a new book in Borders, "Born to Kvetch," by Michael Wex. It looked quite good, and Language Hat writes a good review of it, which means I'm going to read it.
