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Picture of zmježd
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Let us not give in to the delusion of the middle-aged that the world is going to the dogs. They have been spreading the delusion since records were kept, from ancient Nestor looking back wistfully to the golden heroes who were slain in front of Troy, adding, as a pathetic postscript to the list, his own dear son., to Harold Macmillan reminiscing about the golden douceur de la vie before the First World War came and ruined everything; from Hesiod, moaning that he was born in this brutal Iron Age, in which men work and suffer continually, to Ronald Reagan looking back through rose-coloured shades at an imaginary America, where men were men, and respected the flag, and grandma and grandpa would sit safely on the stoop in their rocking-chairs without being mugged. [...]

Quite recently the Cassandras and associated worriers have found something new to worry about. They suggest that it is not just the world, and civilization as we know it, that are going to the dogs; but specifically that the English language is falling to bits. This is not an original worry. It comes in waves. Swift reckoned that English was going to the dogs. So did Dr Johnson, who startred his dictionary to the rot in the English language, "which, while it was employed in the cultivation of every species of literature, has itself been githerto neglected, suffered to spread, under the direction of chance, into wild exhuberence, risgned to the tyranny of time and fashion, and exposed to the corruptions of ignorance, and caprices of innovation.

It is curious and perhaps significant, that previous periods of revolution in English do not seem to have felt such gloom apprehensions. When the inflexions of Old English started to wither after the Norman Conquest, when the regional dialects of Middle English started to coalesce, when the new world produced the exhuberant fireworks display of new language exemplified by Shakespeare, not a whisper of gloom about the state of the language is recorded for us. Perhaps the Cassandras who felt their language was going to the dogs could not write; and the clerks who could write recognized that language was made for men, not man for language.

[...]

Our perception of the English language and how it works has changed radically in the present generation. In the High Victorian world the pristine philologists saw the language in much the same way as they saw Victorian society: as a pyramid. At the top was the Queen's English (not, as it happens, spoken very well by Her Majesty, who retained a faint German accent all her life; she wrote it with naive charm and enthusiasm). The Queen's English was the sort spoken in an Oxford accent by the educated classes in the south-east of England, taught by the great public schools and the old universities, and printed in The Times and the books from the main London publishing houses. Lower down the pyramid were lesser kinds of English, some of them perfectly respectable members of the House of Lords of language, such as the dialects and grammars of Scottish and American English; others of them disreputable commoners, unspeakable by the civilized, such as Cockney or Gorbals.


[Philip Howard. 1985. The State of the Language: English Observed, pp. vii, viii, & 1. Mr Howard is the literary editor of The Times.]

[Addendum 06/20/06: Added some omitted text back into the quotation in red; not quite sure what I was thinking of when I dropped it. My apologies to the board, its members, and to Mr Howard.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,


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<Asa Lovejoy>
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Perhaps the lack of such "gloom apprehensions" in previous ages can be ascribed to the increase in communication of the last thirty or so years via the internet, with possibly an increase in homogeneity of "koine" or "vulgar" English as a result.
 
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Towards the end of the Nineteenth Century there was no shortage of prescriptivist writers bemoaning the "declining standard of English" at that time. Fowler's The King’s English and Modern English Usage were welcome exceptions to this depressing trend.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
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quote: It is curious and perhaps significant, that previous periods of revolution in English do not seem to have felt such gloom apprehensions.

I, like arnie, disagree. He points to the late 19th century.

In the first part of that century, British writers viciously attacked the supposed debased usages in the US.

And didn't Donne or Swift complain about the degradation of English and call for an academy along the lines of that in France?
 
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I'm sorry, but the passages I left out talk about Donne, Swift, the 18th century grammarians, et al. I'll try to add those paragraphs back in.


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Interestingly, Nathan Bierma wrote a column just today where he mentioned Jonathan Swift. He says, "People have been complaining about the state of the English language for centuries, and they almost always overstate the doom English faces. John Dryden whined in the year 1660 that 'our language is in a manner barbarous.' Jonathan Swift wrote an essay in 1712 called 'Proposal for Correcting, Improving and Ascertaining the English Tongue'."

Bierma's article was especially good this week, though I couldn't find it online. It is entitled, "Hopefully, the grammar police will keep advice to themselves" and addresses some of the discussions we've had about prescriptivists. In fact, I emailed the article to a few people in my office, and I am happy to email it to anyone who'd like it. Perhaps in a few days it will be available online.
 
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Here's the link to Kalleh's article.
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But usage manuals are seldom written by linguists, who actually study how language works. The manuals tend to make subjective, selective and shaky suggestions. The authors pass off their own personal preferences or folk customs as gospel truth.
 
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Richard Lederer's website, Verbivore, is worth a visit.


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There is no question but that the Mother Tongue is going to hell in a handbasket because we have entered an era when almost any word can be dropped almost anywhere it conceivably might be thought to fit

Even though the meaning is exactly opposite the "previous" def

Thus very soon it doesn't matter what you say, it can be interpreted to mean anything you want it to

I'm not sure whether this makes me a prescriptivist or a descriptivist, but it doesn't matter because before long the two words will be used interchangeably

Mark my words
 
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I'm not sure whether this makes me a prescriptivist or a descriptivist.

It makes you a Cassandra.

quote:
My Lord; I do here in the Name of all the Learned and Polite Persons of the Nation, complain to your Lordship, as First Minister, the our Language is extremely imperfect; that its daily Improvements are by no means in proportion to its daily Corruptions; and the Pretenders to polish and refine it, have chiefly multiplied Abuses and Absurdities; and, that in many Instances, it offends against every Part of Grammar. But lest Your Lordship should think my Censure to be too severe, I shall take leave to be more particular.


[Jonathon Swift. 1712. "A Proposal for Correcting, Improving, and Ascertaining the English Tongue" a letter to Robert Earl of Oxford.]

Johnathon Swift died in 1745; English is still going strong in spite of his whining. I believe English will outlive the two of us, too.


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zm: Yes it will, but not in any kind of recognizable, usable form
 
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I'm just wondering dale how much meaningful communication you think you would have had with a fifteenth, tenth or fifth century Englishman. Would it be more or less do you think than you might have with a hypothetical twenty-fifth, thirtieth or thirty-fifth century man?


"No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money." Samuel Johnson.
 
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Yes it will, but not in any kind of recognizable, usable form

No, that's where you're wrong, dale. It may not be recognizable by us, but it will be both recognizable and usable by its speakers and writers. Here's what English looked like before it degenerated to its present form:

Ðæm eafera wæs æfter cenned, geong in geardum, þone god sende folce to frofre; fyrenðearfe ongeat þe hie ær drugon aldorlease lange hwile.


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