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Oh! Osbiefeel! Welcome aBoard! We do hope you love it here as much as the rest of us!  | |||
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quote: I wery much vunder vhy? (And velcome to verdcraft, Osbiefeel!) Checking my etymology source (Oxford) didn't help, but did give the information that there are two different meanings of "wort", with different sources. wort¹ -- the beer meaning, from "spicery". OE wyrt = OS wurtja spicery, (M)HG würze wort² - a plant (mostly used in combination; e.g. liverwort) OE wyrt root, plant = OS wurt, (O)HG wurz and back to Old Norse and Gothic | |||
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I confess my error. It was carelessness, not ignorance, I will say. I brew both wine and beer and use both terms frequently so I shouldn't have made the mistake! I mentioned the Rheinheitsgebot in another posting in response to CJ's comment about the superiority of German beers. The Rheinheitsgebot is, as has been stated, a Bavarian law, not a German one and thus can only guarantee the quality of beers produced in Bavaria, not Germany as a whole. We have a similar law in a part of the UK. Beer produced in the Isle of Man can be brewed using only hops, malt, yeast and water. Sadly this law, too, only applies in the Isle of Man and thus there is nothing to stop the fizz factories from imposing their adulterated concoctions onto a bemused public in the rest of Great Britain. Richard English | |||
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As my own welcome to osbiefeel, allow me to say: Hail to thee, blithe Spirit. Bird thou never wort!" I think you'll find this board interesting. I commend you on your attempt to educate R.E. on his zymurgilogical vocabulary. I've tried to do the same with his well-meaning yet endearingly misguided usage of apostrophes with, so far, limited success. Regarding "Bird thou never wort," some people may think that coming up with beer puns is pretty much scraping the Rheinheitsgebottom of the barrel language-wise, but B.H. is particularly fond of them so feel free to do your worst. Of course, if it's German beer you're punning on, feel free to do your wurst. I lost my love to an overrated American beer which left me a sadder Budweiser man. Slap me, somebody!! | |||
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quote: C.J, cease this mischief immediately or I'll have to cross you off my Christmas card list. Damn, you weren't on it anyway. If you keep on spreading this vile slander* I'll put you on my Christmas card list and then cross you off again. * And yes thank you I do know that written down it's libel but "vile slander" has a better ring to it. Purgamentum init, exit purgamentum Read all about my travels around the world here. | |||
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Richard on "irregardless": quote:I checked the multi-volume OED (2nd Ed.; 1989) at my library today; here is what I found: "irregardless, a. and adv. Chiefly N. Amer. Prob. blend of irrespective and regardless. In non-standard or humorous use: regardless". It goes on to cite various uses of it, starting from 1912 in Wentworth Amer. Dial., with the last citation being from 1971 "M. McShane Man who left Well Enough iv. 96 The sun poured down on Purity irregardless of the fact that it received no welcome". The definition from OED was similar to those found in Webster's or AHD. I just wanted to set the record straight. I swear that I hate the word and will never use it. After all, I started the subject in Pet Peeves. | |||
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When seaching my dictionary for a word to fit Asa's Z in 'Six Letters to Fun' I was greatly excitted to find that the penultimate word in my AHD is a beer-word. But I see that osbiefeel has beaten me to it. Nicely done, sir! zymurgy - The branch of chemistry that deals with fermentation processes, as in brewing. | |||
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One of my pet peeves is someone using the word seen for saw. As in, "I seen him do that". Drives me nuts! | |||
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Yes, I agree! Bad grammar, in general, dusts my doilies! My mother used to know someone who said, "Them are nice"! I'm so glad I didn't know him! | |||
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quote: Couldn't agree more. In my local dialect this would have to be them am nice  RE who has spent time in the Midlands might confirm this as a common spoken usage. I'm not suggesting for one moment this is grammatical but I think one of the great attributes of English is the wide variety of accents and dialects that we hear. Purgamentum init, exit purgamentum Read all about my travels around the world here. | |||
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Yes, I dearly love the accents, too. I remember my parents telling me that they had a Nash Rambler with a seat that made into a bed (I believe Nash was the first auto to do this). A southerner was speaking to them and kept asking, "Can you make a bed out of that?" My parents were absolutely stumped until they found someone to help them. They thought he was saying, "Can you make a bet out of that?" Another pet peeve: the wrong use of "effect" vs. "affect". My son, as a high school junior, had written a paper about the effect of something on something (I can't remember the specifics). However, I do remember that "Effect" was used in his title. His English teacher took off points for using the wrong "effect"! My husband faxed her an article making the distinction quite clear, and she reversed her decision. Still, she was the English teacher! | |||
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Of course, when one visits an area and begins to associate with the locals (one of the great virtues of the pub is the way in which it facilitates this kind of intercourse) one starts to pick up this kind of idiom. Having said which, it has been my experience that many people take somewhat more care with their speech when they are conversing with "foreigners" and so it can take a while before some of the more extreme idiomatic expressions start to be used. Richard English | |||
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I am glad that imply and infer confusion is included here. It annoys me becuase the type of person who use infer incorrectly, do it in the mistaken belief that they are using fancy language. However, the distinction between the words is no longer upheld in every dictionary. Obviously, I am the kind of person who listens to such mistakes without comment, but mispronunciation of the letter H always catches my ear. There is no excuse for adding the h sound, unless you are Irish or playing a stage cockney. I also wonder whether the more is really necessary in constructions of the following type: the more senior politician made the decision. Isn't senior an adequate comparitive on its own? | |||
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I have certainly never seen a source that suggests this! The difference between the "to draw a conclusion" and "to suggest" is surely so wide that there could never be any excuse for considering the meanings of the words "infer" and "imply" to be the same or even similar! Richard English | |||
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quote: Chambers gives "to imply or suggest" as a common meaning for "infer" but notes that this meaning is subject to disapproval. It is recommended that if you are talking or writing to someone who is likely to be precise about the use of language, then you should use "imply or suggest." So according to Chambers it's OK to misuse language when addressing illiterates. | |||
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quote: If you had three politicians who were all older than you are and the middle one made a decision, I think that it would be correct to say "the more senior politician made the decision." If the oldest of the three was responsible for expending the brain-power, then "the most senior politician..." would be correct. Being politicians, of course, all decisions would likely be based on self-serving motives but that's another thread altogether. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by C J Strolin: If you had three politicians who were all older than you are and the middle one made a decision, I think that it _would_ be correct to say "the more senior politician made the decision." If the oldest of the three was responsible for expending the brain-power, then "the most senior politician..." would be correct. Being politicians, of course, all decisions would likely be based on self-serving motives but that's another thread altogether.[/QUOTE CJ are you on acid? | |||
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I rest my case in my defence of Oxford! Richard English | |||
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My Pet Peeves list includes a certain member of this community's persistence in repeating slogans in obscure languages. One example is "Purgamentum init, exit purgamentum." Because of today's date, I'll end this with ... Mina rakastan sinua. Sina rakastatko minua? ~~~ jerry | |||
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I suppose it depends on your upbringing as to whether you regard Latin as an obscure language or not! A dead language, maybe, but obscure? I don't think so. But then, I had a classical education... Richard English | |||
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quote: In honour of Jerry's peeve, and with a Latin nod to Bart Simpson, I've changed my signature line. (You are aware that it was a signature line aren't you - that it was in my profile and hence added to every one of my posts automatically ? I haven't been persisting in anything - I only wrote it once !) Vescere bracis meis. Read all about my travels around the world here. [This message was edited by BobHale on Fri Feb 14th, 2003 at 8:42.] | |||
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quote: An educated guess, supported by a little research "I love you, do you love me ?" in Finnish ? Vescere bracis meis. Read all about my travels around the world here. | |||
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You got it right, Bob ! You appear to be both quite well educated and adept at research. I got that quotation from a Finnish carpenter who was doing some rough carpentry work for me. Try this one ==> No tengas miedo, porque el perro que ladra no muerde. ~~~ jerry | |||
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quote: Have no fear, a barking dog doesn't bite. Spanish (Of course it helps that I speak a little Spanish) choSuvchugh 'oy'lIj Daghur neH. If you get that one I'll eat my targh. Vescere bracis meis. Read all about my travels around the world here. | |||
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But, please don't eat your targh. It is the closest a Klingon gets to having a pet!  choSuvchugh 'oy'lIj Daghur neH. "Struggling only makes it hurt more." | |||
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And now that the pet peeves thread has again been found, and it is this wonderful day, I want to announce: "Today is Valentine's Day. It is NOT Valentime's Day." Thank you. Morgan, off her soapbox. | |||
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Is that Farsi??? Sorry! Man farsi sobat mikonim. ~~~ jerry | |||
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As Morgan (a lady it seems of hidden linguistic talents) has correctly spotted, I was cheating. It's Klingon for "Struggling only makes it hurt more" and a "targh" is a Klingon pet (something like an enraged wild boar). Of course doubters will say that there is no such language as Klingon. If you don't believe me look here for Klingon, Romulan and Vulcan phrasebooks. Vescere bracis meis. Read all about my travels around the world here. | |||
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Bob, Thanks for the phonetic transcription(which has now been tastefully deleted) of your current Latin slogan. When you come to Hawaii, it would be best not to utter it aloud. You say that the last four syllables of Vescere bracis meis sound like "bra-kis-may-iz." That's too close to the Hawaiian pidgin (Hawaiian Creole English) "Bra kiss my iz," where "Bra" means brother, and "iz" is euphemistically substituted for ass. That's close -- very close -- to "eat my shorts." Vescere bracis ....... Is Latin venerated by you classical scholars because it's old? Then wouldn't Sanskrit be even more noble? How about some slogans in Proto-Indo-European ??? [This message was edited by jerry thomas on Sat Feb 15th, 2003 at 16:18.] | |||
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And then there's my favorite latin saying: A verbis ad verbera (From words to blows) | |||
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quote: No, it's because in what other language apart from Latin could saying "Eat my shorts" sound so well educated ? As for Sanskrit or Proto-Indo-European, I'm afraid there you have me. I know neither and right now I haven't time to research and find something devastatingly witty to say in Sanskrit. On the other hand I do acknowledge its importance as a world language. On a side note I have a book of proverbs written in Tomba - the pictographic language of the Naxi - but no idea how to post a scan here so I'll have to settle for the translation into English of one of them. (I don't speak Naxi you understand, the book has translations.) The Golden Sand River is deepest. It winds around the Snow Mountain. The water is green as emeralds in the winter and yellow as gold in the summer. No, I have no idea what that means either. Vescere bracis meis. Read all about my travels around the world here. [This message was edited by BobHale on Sun Feb 16th, 2003 at 9:35.] | |||
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Bob, you could also try: Manga, fae to vraki mou. | |||
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I have been reading about England and found the following highlighted as pet peeves to the Brits: 1) "Jumping the queue" is the height of bad manners 2) Raising one's voice in public 3) Standing 2 abreast on an escalator 4) Mispronounciations of words, particularly by Americans 5) Never tell them their English accent is "cute" (oh--but it is! ); you have the accent, and it is not remotely cute!6) Never intervene in soccer arguments 7) Bad service in restaurants--A recent study of many countries showed that the British respondents complained of bad service more than those in any other country. 8) Never call anyone by their first name without obtaining permission How's about it, fellow Brits? Do you agree? I found this in Lesley Logan's (an American) "Unofficial Guide to London". | |||
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It's obvious that you copied and pasted the list, Kalleh, and there's nothing wrong with that. If it had been your original writing you would surely have spelled "mispronunciations" differently. And, speaking of raising one's voice in public, has anyone ever tried shouting "MOVIE!" in a crowded Fire Station ?? Just wondering. ~~~ jerry | |||
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Reasonably accurate, especially about queues. The London Underground, the world's oldest and (I believe) busiest works very well (in spite of the nonsense perpetrated by the media). Most passengers know that the best way to board is to allow the passengers off first and then to get on. There is rarely any jostling and the trains empty and fill very quickly. Last year I was in Cairo and went on their new Metro where they use a similar system - only with a slight difference. The passengers get off and the emabrking passengers get on - both at the same time. The jostle and scrummage is incredible and the process takes twice as long to interchange half the number! The item about complaints is wrong and the misconception comes about, I believe, because Ms Logan was listening to the complaints about service as they were told to her. The British rarely complain about bad service to the supplier (it is one of the reasons why our service is often poor). However, they do complain to others - a lot. Accepted wisdom is that every disgruntled customer will tell 10 other people about the bad service - but will not tell the supplier - and will not go back to the supplier of the poor product or service! Richard English | |||
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quote:Indeed it is. quote:Brits tend to be embarrassed easily by public displays of any emotion, including anger. quote:Dunno about this one. Causing impatient types to get to the end of an escalator a couple of seconds later than they might have otherwise is mildly anti-social, but not in the same class as queue-jumping. quote:Mispronunciations are, I'd say, annoying to most people, not just Brits, and I wouldn't say that mispronunciations by Americans are any more annoying. quote:True. We are the only people to talk normally. Everyone else speaks with an accent. quote:Why would any American want to intervene in such an argument? Very few Americans know anything about football - or rugby or cricket for that matter - so any intervention would probably just mean that both antagonists would join forces in pouring scorn on the American's lack of knowledge. quote:Maybe that's because restaurants in London give worse service than in other countries. Certainly many places seem to give the impression that you ought to be honoured to eat there, rather than expect a modicum of service. quote:That is only common politeness to most Brits. | |||
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Jerry, thanks for the gentle correction about my misspelling of "pronunciation. I have always had trouble with the spelling of that word (doesn't seem logical). This morning my husband said to think of it as if a nun were standing over me with a whip. We'll see if that helps! As far as people calling others by their first name, that irritates me, as well. My students, often in their early 20s, would walk into a patient's room and call the 80-year-old man "Bob". It aggravated me, as well as the patient, beyond words. It is only polite to find out first, in my mind, what people want to be called. I hate is, as well, when I am forced to call my physician "Dr. so-and-so", and then he/she calls me by my first name. Obviously "queue jumping" is a big no-no. The book also said that Americans sometimes get aggravated with the sense that England has "rules, rules, and more rules." I wasn't sure what that meant, except perhaps for the "queue jumping." I must say that Americans don't stand for "butting in line" (our term, though I much prefer "queue jumping") either. | |||
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quote: I agree with you but, alas, the distinction is being lost in much of the USA. The AHD notes this in their definition of infer, but adds a Usage Note. Tinman | |||
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I like that usage note, Tinman. It makes it very clear. | |||
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quote: What is the ojection to this, assuming the escalator is wide enough to comfortably accomodate two? In Japan, people stood on one side of the escalator and left the other side open for those who wanted to pass. Tinman | |||
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quote:That's the point. Two people standing next to each other block the way for those who want to pass. | |||
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It's always possible to identify the British travellers when using escalators abroad - they will be the ones standing on the right. Other nationalities will stand anywhere. Even English couples will not stand two abreast on an escalator; they will stand one behind the other to allow the walkers to pass on the left. Richard English | |||
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Your list is rubbish to be honest, Kalleh. Yes, only the very rude jump queues, but the escalator thing is something I am completely unaware of. Raising your voice in public goes on all the time at football matches, walking home from pubs, trying to catch people attention, etc. Mispronunciation also goes on all the time and can be quite endearing really: Londoners spend all their lives waiting to be asked the way to Lie-Sest-ter Square. Complaining about food is an interesting one and there are probably regional differences: I wouldn't bother (and being vegetarian, I have never had a decent restaurant meal) but people do. Finally, I thought only comedy Americans complimented the Brits on their accent; real ones ask if we are Australian. | |||
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Please ignore this, I accidentally poste twice. | |||
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quote: I have to disagree with most of this Graham. Queue jumping is still considered extremely rude and I've seen it lead to arguments - especially when I take my Dad to collect his pension and some young whippersnapper marches to the post office counter ignoring the twenty pensioners patiently waiting for their turn. Raising one's voice in public is also generally considered bad manners unless there is a good reason for it. A football match is certainly public but it's also a noisy event where part of the enjoyment is shouting encouragement to your team and as such isn't really what we mean by "raising you voice". Try holding a very loud conversation in a restaurant or even on a crowded railway platform and while no-one is likely to say anything to you, you will certainly get some withering looks. Standing two abreast on an escalator might not irk you but it certainly irks anyone who is in a hurry and can't get past you. Once again people don't generally say anything but you get some very nasty looks and a lot of tutting. Mispronunciatiations are I agree not generally a "peeve" as such but certainly are treated by most British as inherent proof that we are superior in every way. On the other hand some domestic mispronunciations do irritate me. We have a local Asda supermarket which my late aunt always called "Ansa". I could never hear her say the word without gritting my teeth. "Aks" instead of "ask" is another one that bugs me. I do agree that Americans don't usually say I have a cute accent and yes they almost always ask me if I'm Australian. As I'm from Wolverhampton this is a bit of a mystery to me - the accents aren't even remotely similar. As a non-football fan I can safely say that nothing on Earth whould persuade me to intervene in a football argument - I value my safety too highly. I will always complain about bad service or bad food in restaurants in this country. Abroad I'm a lot more tolerant but here there is no excuse for surly waiters, badly cooked food or incredibly slow service. I have been known to complain and walk out if gets too bad. Most people get annoyed when a doctor, a nurse, a tax inspector, a shop assistant or whatever use their first name univited. This is a cultural difference. In America many more people will call you by your first name than over here. It doesn't especially annoy me but to the British it does imply a lack of respect while in America it just reflects the more egalitarian nature of social interaction. In short, I'd say Kalleh's list far from being rubbish, is on the whole quite accurate. My own pet peeve about the British is that far too many consider that the thing to do with your empty crisp packet, chip wrapper, cigarette packet or whatever is to drop it wherever you happen to be standing. Litter is my number one pet peeve about Britain. Vescere bracis meis. Read all about my travels around the world here. | |||
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A generation thing maybe? Or a London thing? The only escalator etiquette I have ever seen is the instruction on the tube that tell you on which side to stand. Football is the one subject where you are allowed to butt in on a coversation, and it has been for about 13 years. | |||
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quote: Generation ? Don't know - how old are you ? I'm 45. London - quite possibly, it's well known that everyone down South is a bit funny. Vescere bracis meis. Read all about my travels around the world here. | |||
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Mine too. We are a particularly filthy nation when it comes to littering. Most other European countries have far more respect for their environment. And it's the more strange since it is actually a criminal offence to drop litter in England. Sadly, the law is never enforced (apart from an abortive attempt a couple of years ago to use the anti-litter law to stop prositutes posting their details in telephone boxes - the attempt failed because it was held that a telephone box was not a public place). Because the law is not enforced many people do not even know of its existence and drop their litter without any consideration whatsoever. I should like to see the law upheld - a few fines would have a salutory effect - just look how clean the streets are in Singapore! Richard English | |||
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I must admit one this is one of my biggest pet peeves. I live in Georgia and I swear, this area sounds like it is populated with morons. So many people say "Ax" instead of "ask", and they "gots ta do dis." It's the Eubonics capital of the world. And everyone around here "is fixing" to do something. Instead of saying that they are going to the store they say, "I'm fixing to go to the store." I know it's a sterotype, but I really believe that no one sounds intelligent speaking in a Southern accent. (Obviously not originally from the South!) | |||
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quote: Some 40 years ago, Lenny Bruce agreed with you. His line: If Albert Einstein tawkt lak that we wouldn't have the bomb! Einstein: "I'm tawkin' 'bout sum nookyooler fizion, y'all! Really! Ahm tawkin' sum stuff here, buddy!" non-Southerner: Get outa here, schmuck! Whadda you know?! Sad but true. I assume it's the same for some areas of England as heard by, say, London. | |||
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