Brethree5's use of the word prom in the four-letter game got me thinking. It comes, of course from promenade, which comes in turn from the French se promener "to go for a walk".

It seems that going for a walk was especially popular in the nineteenth century as it afforded the ladies, in particular, an opportunity to show off their frills and furbelows, not to mention their beaux.

The meaning of prom differs somewhat on the two sides of the Atlantic, but both have these overtones of "showing off".

In the US it means a high school dance; presumably where the young ladies can show off.

It has two main meanings in the UK. One is a pedestrian route next to the sea, where it was common for the Victorian young things to promenade - this is a neat tie-in with another thread - malecon.

Nearby there were often bandstands, where promenade concerts were given. In due course a prom became a concert where it was fashionable to be seen at.

Well in the U.S. a prom is a high school dance where both the man and woman show off. In most cases, the women enjoy it more, but the men wear a tux and buy flowers for their dates, while the women wear prom dresses and buy boutonnieres for their dates.

Proms occur about this time of the year, and in fact there was one going on last night in the hotel where Shu and I are staying. There were limousines all over the place, and girls and guys dressed up, having fun. I heard from others in the hotel that there were hall parties until quite late into the night. There is often drinking involved, as well, even though the drinking age here is 21.

The Proms start on 13 July. See here for details http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/2007/

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There is often drinking involved, as well, even though the drinking age here is 21.

Which is probably why there is so much teenage drunkenness in the USA.

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The Proms start on 13 July. See here for details http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/2007/

That sounds excellent! I'd love to be able to visit for that someday.

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There is often drinking involved, as well, even though the drinking age here is 21.

Which is probably why there is so much teenage drunkenness in the USA

Do you not have teen drunkenness in the UK?

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Do you not have teen drunkenness in the UK?

Certainly. But my feeling is that it's less of a problem in those countries with more liberal laws than it is in those with more severe restrictions.

I doubt you're correct, Richard, but it would be nice to see some statistics.

The statistics surely exist but so far my searches have only turned up derivative articles. The one site I did find that looked promising proved to be a red herring. All they had done was to infer an overall percentage rate for alcohol abuse and then extrapolate from the population.

Nonsense, of course, since it is obvious that rates of alcohol abuse will vary from country to country (in some Middle Eastern countries alcohol use is illegal and thus the abuse rates are very low). It shows how easy it is to be deceived by a nice-looking grid if you're not careful!

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Originally posted by Richard English:

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Do you not have teen drunkenness in the UK?

Certainly. But my feeling is that it's less of a problem in those countries with more liberal laws than it is in those with more severe restrictions.

Less problem for the cops, that's for sure!

I grew up in a liberal [college-town] county where bars were open until 3am, in a more liberal day when New York State drinking age was 18 (it eventually joined other states in raising the age to 21). Teens from nearby 'dry' counties could be found in our bars regularly. And every bar would get new life at 11pm, then again at 1am, as teens rolled in from counties where relative sobriety was encouraged by earlier closing hours. "Drunk driving" wasn't even a common phrase, nor was such subject to severe punishment (before the advent of MADD, Mothers Against Drunk Driving).

My sense is that underage drinking is indeed a great problem in the US, now as then (although it was legal then, for me). It would appear to be a problem similar to our gun issues, except for the constitutional angle of course. Alcohol-- like drugs and guns-- is easily obtained by minors. As so happens in this country, capitalism trumps the common good.

This phenomenon is common in every region where there are statutory closing hours which all have to adhere to. People will tend to move any relatively short distance in order to carry on drinking - in many cases they will do so even if they don't really want a drink.

Now that England has flexible closing times, there is now less trouble at the traditional "chucking out time" since there is no longer the sudden pressure on facilities cause by everyone leaving at once and trying to catch the same buses or hail the same taxis. Now people leave when they have had enough, not when the Government says they have to leave.

In spite of the Daily Mail's campaign against "24-hour licensing" and "binge drinking" the breakdown of society it forecast just has not happened - just as it didn't happen in Ireland or Scotland - or any other country that has liberalised its licensing laws.

Bethree5, I agree with you that teen drinking is a problem here in the US and hope I didn't come across as denying that problem. My point was, and continues to be, I don't think it's because of the drinking age, as Richard apparently does. I have been looking online for similar statistics for the US and UK and wasn't all that successful. However, I did find these statistics for the UK.

One major reason for raising the age back to 21 when it was lowered to 18 for a time was that it was reported that alcohol abuse became much more prevalent in the high schools during that period. Not sure if there were any decent stats supporting that contention at the time, though.

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However, I did find these statistics for the UK.

This is an old BBC news item, one of many that were being trotted out around 3 years ago when the legislation repealing the last vestiges of the 1917 Defence of the Realm Act was being discussed. There was (and still is) a very effective PR campaign against the introduction of flexible opening hours for pubs - even though, as most people now admit, the introduction of flexible hours has been a great success.

Two things that all these articles have in common are these:

Firstly they all quote vague statistics that purport to "prove" that England is the binge-drinking capital of the world. The BBC article's paragraph, "...Figures add weight to the theory - suggesting that UK teenagers are among the heaviest drinking in Europe, and that teenage girls are binge drinking more than boys...." is a fine example that gives no facts but leaves a strong message for those who choose to believe it. Not a single one of the UK media's articles I have read ever gives a source for the statistics they quote - and I take little notice of references that do not quote a source.

Secondly, in all these articles there is narrative, and often a picture to support it, that speaks of the "binge-drinking culture and the dangers of the streets that a full of drunken teenagers. Then an unsubstantiated link is made to pubs and how much worse things will be now that we have longer pub opening hours. All absolute rubbish. In the BBC article there is a picture of a girl drinking in the street (not in a pub where she'd probably not have been served as she's too young) and she's drinking a bottle of strong lager. And where will she have bought it? In a pub where it would have cost probably £2.50 or in a supermarket where it would have cost maybe £1.50?

The binge-drinking culture (where it exists and it's not all that common) is fuelled by supermarkets (now open 24 hours in many cases) not by pubs. And although there are minimum age limits for alcohol purchase, these are easily circumvented - and are in both the UK and the USA.

The BBC article also mentions the different drinking culture in France and Italy. Is it a coincidence that both these countries have a lower minimum drinking age (16) than does either the UK or the USA (whose minimum drinking age is the highest in the world)?

There is an interesting site here http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/LawAndPolicy.html that gives much information on alcohol and one of its key findings is that, "...Research clearly does not support the theory that restrictive legislation is the answer to solving the problem of alcohol abuse..."

This site has many references, with sources, and would repay a more intensive search than I have as yet made.

I thought I made myself perfectly clear, but apparently I haven't.

I don't think, either way, the drinking law matters as to teen drinking. While I don't think the 21 law deters U.S. teens from drinking, I also don't think England's whatever age law deters teen alcoholism.

It seems to me that Richard is saying the U.S. has a larger problem with teen drinking because of our 21 age limit, and I don't think that is true. I looked at a lot more sites than the one I posted, and much of the statistics show England's teen drinking to be at least as bad as ours, if not worse.

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It seems to me that Richard is saying the U.S. has a larger problem with teen drinking because of our 21 age limit, and I don't think that is true.

That is only my belief; I don't suggest it is a proven fact. None of the sites I have seen (apart from the one I cited above and which I need to check further) quotes facts. That BBC item is, as as I said, just one of many examples of a journalist trying to make a story from nothing.

One fact that is true is that the USA has the highest minimum legal drinking age in the world; Portugal has the lowest. My impression (no more than that, although I have visited both countries) is that there is no more drunken behaviour in Portugal than there is in the USA. All we need to do is to find some reliable statistics by country that give details of such things as alcoholism, convictions for drunken driving; convictions for drunk and disorderly behaviour, etc., Then we will be able to draw valid conclusions.

Kalleh, if you have found some sites that give properly referenced statistics, not simply journalistic interpretation, then I would be interested in knowing about them.

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That BBC item is, as as I said, just one of many examples of a journalist trying to make a story from nothing.

I obviously disagree with you about that site or I wouldn't have posted it. It just seems to me that you disagreed with it, but I didn't see any refutation of the facts.

As I have said, I don't think the age limits have much to do with teen alcoholism seen in countries. Thus, your impressions about Portugal vs. the U.S. don't surprise me one bit. What does surprise me is your continued belief that I think our 21 age limit is decreasing teen alcohol consumption in the U.S., as compared to countries with lower age limits. I have several times indicated that I don't think the age limitation is effective. On the other hand, I also don't think having no age limitation is effective. I don't think age limitations have anything at all to do with teenage drinking. Perhaps that is clearer.

Given that, there really isn't any point in my finding lots of statistics to try to prove that our teen drinking is lower because of our 21 age limit...when I, myself, don't believe that. <sigh>

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It just seems to me that you disagreed with it, but I didn't see any refutation of the facts.

I thought I'd made it clear enough why I didn't like the article; it's simply unsupported journalistic hype, used to convey a political point. The "statistics" quoted were vague and unreferenced and that's why I don't give it credit. Furthermore, it is an old article that was being used to try to alter the Government's decision to introduce flexible pub opening hours.

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What does surprise me is your continued belief that I think our 21 age limit is decreasing teen alcohol consumption in the U.S., as compared to countries with lower age limits.

I don't think I ever said that and I didn't mean to imply it. It is MY belief that the older age limit probably leads to greater alcohol misuse; but it is a belief that I have as yet found no statistics to support. If you can find a site that give properly referenced statistics for alcohol misuse, then I would be happy to try to draw some conclusions. But those figures I have not yet found - and those vague references in that old BBC article are not the kinds of statistics that either of us would use, were we putting together a presentation or thesis.

I see your point about that article, though one statistic was enough to transcend some of the hype, and that was: " in the UK, 29% of 15 to 16-year-old girls admit to routinely drinking five or more drinks in a single session, compared to 26% of boys." Of course you probably don't agree with that statistic. Not living in the UK, I'd not know how to find the original study. That statistic is huge, and most definitely it is way above what we see here. However, I don't know their sampling technique, the sample number, nor the questions asked. I do think it funny, though, that this time, Richard, you are questioning the survey. Often when you post survey results (such as the U.S. being more patriotic than the U.K. or whatever), you state them as fact. I am always the one to want to know the sampling and survey design. Now the tables seems turned a bit when you don't like the results.

As I stated above, I don't believe, either way, age limits mean a thing with teen drinking. Therefore, the onus is on you, Richard, to find statistics to support your thesis. Until I see convincing evidence, I will continue with my current belief.

We did get away from the original prom talk, didn't we? Sorry folks. Any good prom stories out there? How do teens in the U.K. dress for proms? Our prom goers wear long ballroom dresses and tuxedoes, usually.

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Research studies show that 42.6 percent of statistics are made up on the spot.

Don't quote me.

The statistics quoted in the article, including the one about teenage drinking, are unreferenced and I do not trust them. I have seen many such statistics used in journalistic hype type articles and this is just one of many. I have tried hard to find the sources and failed. I could write to the Beeb but I have found them to be very poor correspondents and doubt they would reply.

I think you will find that, when I quote actual statistics, I give their source - including that one about Americans being more proud of their country than other nationalities. (It comes from World Value Surveys) and from memory it is that 77% of Americans are very proud of their nationality, 1st equal with Ireland and well ahead of the rest of the world.

There will be statistics around that will prove or disprove a link between drinking age and alcohol abuse, but the BBC article is not a sources of such statistics.

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How do teens in the U.K. dress for proms?

We don't have the same tradition over here. We have school dances, of course, but they are not especially "formal" dances like your proms. Because of constant exposure to US culture via the movies, TV and books, most know about them, though, and I feel sure that some school dances are "themed" as a US-style prom.

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I feel sure that some school dances are "themed" as a US-style prom.

As it is my understanding that Proms are traditionally the occasions where virginities are lost, I can understand their appeal;-)

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and from memory it is that 77% of Americans are very proud of their nationality, 1st equal with Ireland and well ahead of the rest of the world.

And, just as you don't trust the BBC's statistics, I don't trust that statistic, Richard. I gave my reasons many posts ago and won't belabor the point.

Proms in the U.S are quite nice really. Often groups of kids go together and have a wonderful time. There are problems, of course, where limousines, hotels, drinking, etc., get in the way. But generally they are precious experiences that many treasure their whole lives. Having said that, I remember my own prom. I loved everything about it...except the boy I went with. Sadly, I just wanted to go. I am sure that happens a lot, too.

I know you don't believe this figure (although to me it seems highly believable) but to suggest that there is any comparison with the nonsense quoted in that old BBC article is ludicrous. The BBC's article quoted a few statistics to support the author's point of view; the author gave no source or even date. For all we know they could have been made up on the spot.

The 77% figure I quoted was from World Value Surveys, a non-profit scientific organisation based in Sweden, and you can find out about it here http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/

If you choose to disagree with the foundation,s findings, fair enough, but they are properly researched statistics and you can easily register for the site and examine them for yourself. The BBC's article was just the author's opinion and quite uncheckable.

As I have said many times, I try never to quote unreferenced media findings since all such findings will have the bias of the author's views.

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but to suggest that there is any comparison with the nonsense quoted in that old BBC article is ludicrous.

I have spent my life in research, Richard. I am used to responses like yours. When people don't like results, they can't understand how anyone else could. When they agree with results, they can't understand how anyone else couldn't.

I have argued the sampling technique and the particular interview questions, regarding the patriotism survey, in previous posts and don't intend to do so again. Suffice it to say, I find those results just as ludicrous as you find the BBC results for teen drinking. As for your comment that they are "properly researched statistics," I respectfully disagree, as stated previously upon critiquing the surveys.

That'll be the end of this discussion from my side, though. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree.

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I find those results just as ludicrous as you find the BBC results for teen drinking.

You have every right to your belief but there is one indisputable fact: the BBC article quotes no source for its statistics; the "Pride in Nationality" statistics source is quoted and can readily be verified.Indeed, I have looked at the site and checked - and so could you if you wished. You can't check the BBC's statistics because their source is not shown.

I reject the BBC's statistics because they are unreferenced, not because I disagree with them. I would never reject findings simply because I didn't agree with them - and doubt you'll ever find an instance where I have.

Damn, it's only 7:40 a.m., but I think I'll go and have a drink!

Before I do, tho', my two cents: I believe there is a teen drinking problem in both countries, but that there are differences in how it manifests itself and how much the adults care or worry about it. In the U.S. there isn't universally available public transportation and there is a great deal of pressure not to drink and drive--so the drinking parties are combined with sleepovers, either at someone's home or at a hotel. There's a designated driver if the kids are driving, or a hired driver (that's why all the limos for the prom-sters.) The drinking occurs mostly indoors and only if Mom and Dad aren't home do the neighbors start to hear the din at 2 a.m. and really notice all that much.
In such cases the parents will be very embarrassed and also concerned about stopping their kids from doing this again (and some of the more brainless ones will be contributing alcohol to such parties.)

After the age of 18 these parties take place in dorm rooms, and that often also gets really wild and crazy.

But every time we've been to the UK, we've encountered stumbling drunken young people just on the streets of the cities we were visiting--any night of the week. It's not that we don't have drunken stumbling kids in this country--they just aren't stumbling drunk out in the open quite so much. I've remarked to George more than once that the Brits and the Scots don't seem to care that people see them drunk--there doesn't seem to be a social taboo against it. Or is there? Are we just hanging around the wrong parts of Inverness and Edinburgh and Durham and London? Are these kids' parents at all involved, or are they mostly just ignoring it as normal teen behavior.

Time for that drink, or more likely, to get to work.

Cheers!

Wordmatic

Just to add a tuppence haha. Here in NJ the law goes after WHOEVER serves minors, including parents. There have been a few widely publicized incidents of parents being arrested for serving minors in their homes, or for allowing this to happen through lack of supervision. I expect it's too soon since the law was enacted to have much idea of what effect it has had. In my little corner of NJ, it seems there's at least one rarely-supervised kid in every crowd who can get his/her hands on the family supply.

I agree with Kalleh that the American social pendulum is now swinging toward disapproval of any public show of drunkenness among teens, whereas 40 yrs ago such was considered par for the teenage course (at least for young males). However, unfortunately, a large chunk of teens' parents today came of age in the late '60's/ early '70's. Judging from the weekly local 'police blotters', drunken driving is mainly the province of adults, and the teens are regularly stoned in public & behind the wheel. Although there's no 'breathalyzer' for being stoned, teens behind the wheel are regularly pulled over for 'erratic driving', then searched, at which point they are arrested for possession.

Sadly, this subject is not far removed from prom night. Tickets went on sale at our h.s. today. My eldest eschewed this ritual (thankfully), but my middle ds is acceeding to gf's wishes 'just to be there'. Though he (middle ds) frowns on such trappings as a limo, dh & I feel it may be the safe move.

Oy vey. I tried not to respond, but what's a passionate girl to do?

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You have every right to your belief but there is one indisputable fact: the BBC article quotes no source for its statistics;

Okay, then, I found the BBC site, and, much like the OED, they have a lot of different ways you can contact them for questions or even to correct their "grammatical mistakes." So I wrote a sweet, little email, playing the American who wants to prove the mean old British poster wrong...who, BTW, thinks the BBC's report was "ludicrous." I am hopeful that might bring a response where I will be able to read the original study. Stay tuned...

Bethree, I hope your kids have fun. I know what you mean about the limo. Let's face it, it's fun too!

One BBC-related statistic that was published some years ago in the Radio Times is interesting. I long ago threw the edition out so am quoting from memory.

These statistics were people's perception of the Beeb's efficiency in various areas of its operations and, in general, people were very satisfied with its core work - that of producing programmes. But in peripheral areas they often did far worse and, as one who had written on several occasions to the Beeb and had received no reply, I checked particularly the statistics for "satisfaction with the way in which the BBC dealt with correspondence". I recall that the percentage who felt that the BBC performed "satisfactorily or better" in this area was less than 50% - which is quite disgraceful since dealing with correspondence is one of the easier jobs to do well.

I hope you get an answer - but I am not all that optimistic.

Random comments:

I was a waiter for many years and we were very much aware of the law holding the server responsible for drunks. There have been a number of cases over the years where a drunk driver has killed someone and the bartender was charged as an accessory.

Last Night at the Proms is a fabulous tradition in the classical music world. It's difficult to imagine an American audience roaring out "Land of hope and glory," or something analogous, the way the Brits do.

Actually, in a way they do - although most don't realise that they do. Land of Hope and Glory (actually Elgar's 1st Pomp and Circumstance March) is used as the graduation march of many US universities.

Of course, they don't use Benson's words...

For those who have been deprived of the pleasure of watching and listening to the Last Night, here's a sample from last year's Prom. Stick with it for a minute or so - the famous tune doesn't start immediately http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THYgeETrkPs

Last time I sang "Land of Hope and Glory" was in sixth grade chorus. Yep, we sang all the words. Last time I played that part of Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance was in the orchestra at the age of 17 at the high school commencement ceremony. Last time I marched to it myself was last year when I received my MBA at a ripe older age, and last time I heard it was last week at the Ursinus College commencement!

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It's difficult to imagine an American audience roaring out "Land of hope and glory," or something analogous, the way the Brits do.

Sure we do--just not standing in a pit in the concert hall-- All our concert halls have seats on the orchestra floor and they're the most expensive ones in the house, well, except for the boxes. But there are plenty of crowd scenes, especially on 4th of July, where everybody waves flags and sings God Bless America or the Star Spangled Banner while the band or orchestra plays and the choir sings. Many of the larger cities have full orchestra concert series under park pavilions or under the stars in the summer. In Philadelphia, they're at the Mann Music Center. Sometimes the audience sings along at these, depending on what's being played.

Very stirring, patriotic display in the YouTube piece. In this country the crowd is more likely to sway than do that little knee bounce thing.

Wordmatic

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Sure we do--just not standing in a pit in the concert hall-- All our concert halls have seats on the orchestra floor and they're the most expensive ones in the house, well, except for the boxes.

Ours do generally - but not at the Proms. Sir Henry Wood's original concept was that people could walk around (promenade) and listen to the music, and the standing areas in the RFH are the vestiges of that. If you attend a normal concert then you would sit.

Wikipedia's article is pretty good. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Proms