Oh, for heaven's sake!

I wasn't talking about people here...just in general. You guys really know how to get to me!

BTW, I do think that women are a whole lot better at apologizing than men are. For some reason, men see it as a sign of weakness. I can't understand that because I see it as a sign of strength. If a person can admit that he is wrong, IMHO, he is confident in himself; he knows he can actually be wrong and that it's okay.

However, I suppose somebody can go overboard, and perhaps I do. I won't apologize for it!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

I think they did great at apologizing - made me giggle!!!



What was the question, again?

If Richard can apologise for not apologising,
then I shall apologize for not apologizing.

Seriously though, isn't there a difference between picking the nits of typography, and disagreeing with substantive points? I'd be reluctant to do the former, but the latter is part and parcel of a serious discussion.

isn't there a difference between picking the nits of typography, and disagreeing with substantive points?

My point precisely, Hic. Tinman's misspelling of "navel" should be taken in stride, but I am so glad that Jerry pointed out my apostrophe error because I would hate for that to be left there. I just regret my using the word "reprimanded" because I think I offended Jerry.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said anything. By and large, I think everyone here is supportive and positive. I can't imagine a better group of people.

I already mentioned good timing in another thread where I had just posted about "excelsior," and then the word came up in my book.

Here it is again! There was an article in the NY Times today about men not liking to apologize, and women wanting apologies.

Here is a quotes from that article, which really summarizes it:

"Many men learn, from the time they're children, to avoid apologizing, because it entails admitting fault, and that's risky for them. Boys have to be on their guard against appearing weak -- either literally, by losing fights, or figuratively, in the way they speak -- because if they act or talk in ways that show weakness, other boys will take advantage and push them around.

But refusing to apologize infuriates women because it makes it seem as if the guy doesn't care that he let her down, and if he doesn't care, there's no reason to think he won't do it again."

The author points out in the last debate, where the audience asked the candidates questions, that it was a woman who asked about "mistakes." Women would like the candidates to apologize for mistakes, but male candidates are very reluctant to do that. The article did point out that last month Tony Blair admitted publicly that he had been wrong about his reasons for going to war. Similarly, while Vice President Nixon insisted that the U.S. must never apologize to the Soviet Union for having sent a U-2 plane on a spying mission into its territory, the victorious John F. Kennedy argued that the U.S. must admit fault and express regret.

I have never understood why people, when they are wrong, find it hard to apologize. Perhaps it really is gender related.

Quote "...I have never understood why people, when they are wrong, find it hard to apologize. Perhaps it really is gender related...."

The point has already been made that an apology could be construed as an admission of error or guilt. In the increasingly litigious world in which we live, with all too many people trying to blame their loss onto someone else, admitting guilt is a dangerous pastime.

In business, in particular, it is unwise to apologise except in general terms. So, to say someting like, "...I am sorry you were inconvenienced by missing your flight..." would be OK. However, to say, "...I am sorry I put the wrong check-in times on your itinerary..." would be most unwise - especially if it were true. A claim for damages on the grounds of professional incompetence would be on its way before you could say "liability insurance".

Interesting. Yet, in fact, I bet we find the opposite. It is fairly clear that when healthcare providers apologize and offer to take care of the expenses they have incurred with their errors, oftentime they can avoid expensive litigation. Likewise, as the Times pointed out in politics, generally those who have actually said they were wrong or that they are sorry (Kennedy was a good example), are the ones voted in by the people (especially women, the article said.)

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
in politics, generally those who have actually said they were wrong or that they are sorry (Kennedy was a good example), are the ones voted in by the people

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Ah well, if we are linking the word sorry to politics all those of you on the other side of the ocean are missing a real sideshow as we watch the linguistic hoops that Tony Blair is prepared to jump through to avoid ever using the word. It's quite a treat for those of us who like to watch politicians squirm.

Bob, that's interesting because he was the other one the NY Times mentioned. They said that he recently apologized to the people of England for going to war for the wrong reasons. Did he just admit it, without apologizing? Perhaps I assumed the apology, but they definitely said that he admitted to being wrong.

As Bob indicates, it is fun watching Blair do everything but say "sorry". See this Reuters report.

quote:

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"I take full responsibility and indeed apologise for any information given in good faith that has subsequently turned out to be wrong," Blair told parliament on Wednesday, repeating the partial apology he has already made and studiously avoiding the word "sorry".

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He's made any number of statements and has quite often used the word apologise but he always qualifies it in ways that undermine the meaning and sincerity.

He will say (and these are just the kind of things, I haven't looked up any direct quotes) that he apologises for having sincerely reported information that he believed at the time but that has subsequently been shown to be in error.
He will say that he apologises that his previous statements have been misunderstood or misinterpretted.
He will say that he apologises that he was acting on inaccurate intelligence (with insufficient intelligence, I'd have said) when he said that Iraq could launch WMDs against British territory in 45 minutes.

No-one (OK, just in case we have any of the country's remaining half dozen dedicated Blairites on the board let's say almost no-one)over here believes his so called apologies are anything but spin and bluster. He's single handedly wrecked whatever trust anyone ever had in the words of politicians, though I agree that wasn't much to start with.
(You can buy T-shirts with his name spelled Tony Bliar)

The one word that he has resolutely refused to use - to the extent that papers make one big joke out of it - is "sorry".

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My sister and I have had this discussion among ourselves. One of her pet peeves is when someone says something along the lines of "I'm sorry that made you feel bad." The person isn't really appologizing for what they did, but rather only for the fact that you feel bad or hurt about it. Totally different meanings!!!

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"I'm sorry that made you feel bad." The person isn't really appologizing for what they did, but rather only for the fact that you feel bad or hurt about it. Totally different meanings!!!

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I agree - 'sorry' also means 'regret', and although it's true that it's really annoying when people do it to get out of a proper apology after having knowingly misbehaved, sometimes I think it's OK to use the second meaning. For example, you may say something to someone that's totally innocuous but unfortunately triggers a distressing memory in that person that you couldn't possibly have known about. In that kind of situation, I think it's OK to say "I'm sorry that what I said upset you", particularly if you add that you never would have said it had you known of the connection that person would draw. To say "I'm sorry I hurt you" in that situation would, in my eyes, be akin to apologizing for not being psychic.

And while we're on the subject, an apology without genuine regret is as bad as no apology at all - worse, perhaps, because it can be manipulative. I'm reminded of an ex of mine who'd treat me badly, say sorry the next day (or just give me flowers), then go and repeat the offence, sometimes within days. And apologise again. It was such an empty gesture I'd rather not have had it at all. It's funny how a word can lose its meaning simply by falling out of the mouth of someone who doesn't respect that meaning.

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an apology without genuine regret is as bad as no apology at all - worse,

Oh, most definitely! I think that is what arnie and Bob were saying as well. That's why I don't think you can tell your kids to apologize. You must teach them by role modeling.

Perhaps the perception is if someone apologizes too much he/she doesn't really mean it?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

Where I work, upper management is often talking about "risk taking" and "teachable moments" rather than "mistakes," and some of the administrators are better at dealing with those times than others. In short, the idea is that we should be able to make decisions on our own, which means that sometimes we'll do things that "they" would not. Sometimes that's a good thing! Other times it could be bad.

This is another case of spinning the situation with words, sometimes. When a mistake is called a teachable moment, there are still consequences to be dealt with. I, personally, am usually quick to admit my error and move forward, but I still find it interesting that things need to be shown as positive all the time.

What other terms are there for mistakes? HOw else are we using language to gloss over our screw-ups?

This is another case of spinning the situation with words,

I am not answering your question, CW, though I think it an excellent one. However, your above statement struck me because I had an experience yesterday that really was a case of "spinning the situation with words."

I was at a conference with my boss. We both heard the same presentation from this internationally famous nursing leader. While she made a few negative comments about an area that we deal with at our organization, generally her comments were outstanding...and surely her complaint about our work had an air of truth to it. Her comments about us were for less than 2 minutes, that's for sure.

Yet, when I returned, my boss sent out an e-mail to our Board of Directors completely (in my mind) misrepresenting the comments of this nursing leader. My boss made her comments sound scathing (they weren't at all!). One would have thought the entire speech was negatively aimed at our organization.

Now, it would not be ethical for me to add my perception of the speech because it would be undermining my boss. However, I did let her know how I felt, and she said that we can "agree to disagree" on that. Yet, that means that our Board has her take, and not mine.

Similarly, I sat through several presentations on Monday with my staff, and some of them have a wholly different view of what was said! I tend to be very optimistic, and give the best spin on things in my mind (in general) so I try to listen to the naysayers and get a more balanced perception. When I disagree with my boss . . . well . . . that's a very sticky wicket. And I do not mean sticky in the "hold it in your hand longer" sense.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
It is fairly clear that when healthcare providers apologize and offer to take care of the expenses they have incurred with their errors, oftentime they can avoid expensive litigation.

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When I was learning to drive, the Driver's Ed teachers always told us never to apologize to the other driver after an accident, as they could use it in court as an admission of responsibility and guilt. Here in California, the law was amended a few years ago to make apologies and expressions of regret inadmissible. A small victory for civility.

Quote "...Yet, that means that our Board has her take, and not mine...."

Why don't you get a transcript of her speech and let the board members have copies?

Quote "...When I disagree with my boss . . . well . . . that's a very sticky wicket...."

I am amazed to see this expression used in the USA - and would be even more amazed were I to learn that Americans know what it means!

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Originally posted by Richard English:
Quote "...When I disagree with my boss . . . well . . . that's a very sticky wicket...."

I am amazed to see this expression used in the USA - and would be even more amazed were I to learn that Americans know what it means!

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Isn't it something to do with sports? Some Brit thing like cricket or something? Isn't cricket that game with the paddles and so forth? Its one of those phrases that feels so good on my tongue, I've used it for years. It's onomatopoeaic, don't you think?

I see I'm not going to be even more amazed, then!

I have heard it, but I have to say I had no idea what it meant. Nice, CW!

Why don't you get a transcript of her speech and let the board members have copies?

Interestingly, Richard, this conference highlighted 6 sages in nursing, and so it was audiotaped. The tapes will be available. I will tell the Board that they are available, but that's all I probably should do.

Here in California, the law was amended a few years ago to make apologies and expressions of regret inadmissible. A small victory for civility.

I am very impressed, Neveu! We aren't so lucky here in Illinois, and you are right. We are always told never to say "I'm sorry." Still, I have been in minor fenderbenders where the guy has apologized, and it means a lot when he apologizes.

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Originally posted by Richard English:
I see I'm not going to be even more amazed, then!

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We aim to please!