While talking with a friend, the subject came up of Mensa, the organization of brainiacs.

Which caused this question to pop up in my fertile but strange little mind: is there any linguistic connection between mens- mind Mensa and mens- menses menstruation?

Maybe you can find answers here, shu.

More information here http://www.mensa.org/index0.php?page=10

There are three different Latin roots here: mens, mentis, 'mind', mensis 'month' (cf. English moon, month, monthlies), and mensa, mensæ, 'table' (from the verb metior, mensus 'to measure').

[Fixed misformatted word.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

Jerry, sometimes there is more to etymology than is stated on etymology.com. It's often helpful, but sometimes it just doesn't go into enough depth and sometimes I've found it to be just plain wrong.

Richard's link says this:

quote:

The word "Mensa" means "table" in Latin. The name stands for a round-table society, where race, color, creed, national origin, age, politics, educational or social background are irrelevant.

I've often wondered about the definition of "round-tables;" we call them all the time, but I've never seen any differences with a "round-table" discussion than with any other type of meeting.

Thank you very much for this, Kalleh.

quote:

Jerry, sometimes there is more to etymology than is stated on etymology.com.

I'm jotting that down in my Book of Little-Known Facts and will surely use it in the future.

quote:

I've often wondered about the definition of "round-tables;" we call them all the time, but I've never seen any differences with a "round-table" discussion than with any other type of meeting.

As I understand it, the reason for the round table is that it has no "head" or obvious position of authority. With rectangular tables the small ends are obvious positions for the person in charge to occupy (incidentally, have you noticed that those who wish to be in charge will always take the end of a rectangular table if it's available?).

A round table could promote greater equality and free discussion - although that does need the participants in the meeting to allow for a change in their various interpersonal relationships. If everyone still defers to the chair, who still keeps a tight grasp on his or her power, then there will be little difference between a round-table discussion and any other meeting.

Zmj, it seems to me that another Latin root should get thrown in: Mons (mountain). Spanish mesa means "table," so that just further scrambles the alphabet soup!

Asa, confused between the Mons Veneris and the Mesa de Amor.

Mons (mountain). Spanish mesa means "table,"

Yes, Asa. Spanish mesa is from Latin mensa (which BTW means cafeteria in German). Besides Latin mons, montis, 'mountain', there is also menta, mentæ, 'mint', mentum, menti, 'chin', and mentula, mentulæ, 'penis'. There's a Venusberg near to Bonn, which is a Latino-German hybrid for mons veneris, and another one on which Tannhäuser spent a year in legend.

[Added a missing genitive form and added missing tag.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

quote:

As I understand it, the reason for the round table is that it has no "head" or obvious position of authority.

Makes sense, Richard, and that's what Shu says, too. That's also what the Mensa site indicated. However, in real life I've seen lots of "round table discussion" where there are hosts who pull the group together, call for agendas and minutes to be done, and who are considered to be the group leaders. From my experiences, those discussions are no different, in reality, than any other types of meetings.

Prior to having my brains knocked out, I was a member of Mensa. I noted that typically women joined so as to find other women to talk to who wouldn't look puzzled by their conversation. Men joined in order to show off. Not universally true - just a broad generalization - but it seemed that way to me.

As for a "round table," put any three people in a room together and one will attempt to become the leader of the other two, regardless of intellect.

quote:

I've seen lots of "round table discussion" where there are hosts who pull the group together, call for agendas and minutes to be done, and who are considered to be the group leaders.

It seems to me that these meetings have simply been miss-named. They are not round-table discussions they are formal meetings with all the characteristics of formal meetings.

quote:

I noted that typically women joined so as to find other women to talk to who wouldn't look puzzled by their conversation

I reckon that's true of men as well. I have been a member of Mensa for many years and it is the level of the conversation that I enjoy. Mensa conversations range widely over a wide range of topics since, in my experience, intelligent people have enquiring minds and thus many interests.

A typical pub conversation with a non-Mensa group will not stray far from football

One of the dumbest things I ever did, so to speak, was to join Mensa.

On the other hand, if I had not done so, I could not honestly say now that I am a Mensa dropout.

I am a Mensa dropout. Honestly.

quote:

Prior to having my brains knocked out, I was a member of Mensa.

Asa, you are way too hard on yourself. You'd be fine in Mensa now. You are so clever with words on this board.

quote:

Mensa conversations range widely over a wide range of topics since, in my experience, intelligent people have enquiring minds and thus many interests.

I don't know; that sounds arrogant to me. Surely those who don't meet Mensa standards have inquiring minds and diverse interests, too. I am sure Mensa is rewarding to some, but to me it seems like a little clique with people who can complain how stupid others are. I am sure I am wrong, though.

quote:

I don't know; that sounds arrogant to me. Surely those who don't meet Mensa standards have inquiring minds and diverse interests, too.

Quite probably many do. But, unless they have taken the Mensa (or a similar) test, nobody will know whether or not their IQ is Mensa level.

I can only repeat that, after many years of membership and having met many Mensans, it has been my experience that Mensans generally have the ability to hold erudite conversations about a wide range of topics; many other groups and people I have met do not.

One thing that I have found, which is common to most Mensans, is that we rarely speak of our Mensa membership to non-Mensans. Common results of such revelation include accusations of arrogance, elitism and boastfulness. It is significant that, of those who have posted on this topic, at least three are Mensans - and none of us had previously chosen to reveal our status.

I have taken several IQ tests at various times that have consistently shown that I could be a member of Mensa. I have however not taken it further or taken the "official" Mensa tests as the idea of such "elite" groups is rather abhorrent. In any case, as Groucho Marx wisely remarked, I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member.

Well, I went to the site & tried the "Mensa Workout." Got 23 out of 30, most likely would pass the mensa test according to them. This cracked me up because several of the math answers I got right by simply eyeballing the list as a pattern & lucking out. (I mean where you had to do some actual calculating or know a rule to get the answer!!) Annoyingly, I couldn't get either anagram. Anyway, I'm going to take a wild guess that it costs $ to take the mensa test, which supports the organization, hence the positive score & comment! (cynical, aren't I? but last time I checked, i.e. the GMAT about 30 yrs ago, when plotted next to my h.s. SAT scores, my verbal intelligence had rocketed out of orbit, & my math score had continued on its dismal decline toward zero...

quote:

Anyway, I'm going to take a wild guess that it costs $ to take the mensa test, which supports the organization, hence the positive score & comment! (cynical, aren't I?

There is a small fee to cover costs - but it is very small - far less than it would cost to to take one of the commercial psychometric tests that are sold as true money-making enterprises. Obviously Mensa, like any other organisation, has to cover its running costs, and it does this through its membership fees, sales of products and sponsorship. But it is not an expensive organisation to belong to - I pay far more to belong to my various trade organisations (and get far less).

And, in answer to Arnie's comment about elitism, I can say from personal experience, that Mensa is one of the least elitist organisations I know.

And now, I think, you can all begin to see why Mensans usually keep quiet about their status when talking to non-Mensans.

quote:

I can only repeat that, after many years of membership and having met many Mensans, it has been my experience that Mensans generally have the ability to hold erudite conversations about a wide range of topics; many other groups and people I have met do not.

One thing that I have found, which is common to most Mensans, is that we rarely speak of our Mensa membership to non-Mensans.

And, Richard, I can only repeat that I don't agree. I just don't think one has to be a member of Mensa, or all that intelligent even, in order to hold stimulating (perhaps not always "erudite) conversations about a variety of subjects. In fact, some Mensans I've met are so into their enjoyment of their allegedly high intelligence that they've shown themselves to be quite boring (and I am not talking about anyone on this board). People are people; some are interesting and can converse in a lively way about a variety of topics. Others, no matter what their IQ, can drone on about the most inane subjects. That's just life.

I would also have to disagree with you that Mensans rarely speak of their membership. I've heard many, many people talk about it. Perhaps it's the company I keep. [The roll eyes would be perfect here! Too bad I've sworn off emoticons!]

quote:

And, Richard, I can only repeat that I don't agree. I just don't think one has to be a member of Mensa, or all that intelligent even, in order to hold stimulating (perhaps not always "erudite) conversations about a variety of subjects.

I'm sorry that I obviously didn't make myself clear. I never said that one had to be a member of Mensa to hold an erudite conversation; I said that in my experience most Mensans can. And as I also implied, there are many intelligent people around who are not members of Mensa (but who could be). Mensa membership is open to anyone whose level of intelligence in in the top 2% of the population - but Mensa's membership is far less than 2% of the world's population; there are far more potential Mensa members than there are members.

Anyone can, if he or she chooses, "...drone on about the most inane subjects...", regardless of intelligence. However (and here I will disagree in turn with you) I have found that unintelligent people are less able to converse eruditely than are intelligent people.

As was made very clear in another thread, debate about intelligence always creates high emotions and accusations of elitism, racism and many other "isms" - in a quite different way from debate about any other physical characteristic. If I were to be tall and muscular and I spoke of my interest in body-building and of my membership of some kind of athletic or gymnastic club, no such comments would be made.

But because I am intelligent and belong to a club for intelligent people, already people are commenting about "elitism" and making disparaging remarks about Mensa.

You may have met "many, many" Mensa members who boast about their membership and can only hold arcane discussions; that has not been my experience. I happen to know that there are several Mensa members of this board, only some of whom have recently revealed their status. I am sure you will agree that all who post here are able to hold cogent and erudite debates and I would be quite unsurprised to find that the percentage of Wordcraft Mensans is significantly higher than 2%.

Got 23 out of 30, most likely would pass the mensa test according to them. This cracked me up because several of the math answers I got right by simply eyeballing the list as a pattern & lucking out. (I mean where you had to do some actual calculating or know a rule to get the answer!!) Annoyingly, I couldn't get either anagram.

Knowing how to take tests is a valuable skill.

quote:

(and here I will disagree in turn with you)

No, I think we agree here. I had said, "I just don't think one has to be a member of Mensa, or all that intelligent even, in order to hold stimulating (perhaps not always "erudite) conversations about a variety of subjects." My parentheses indicated that when someone isn't intelligent, the conversation will be less erudite...however we are defining erudite.

At any rate, I didn't mean to "disparage" Mensa. I apologize if I did.

I agree with you, zmj; the skills of test-taking are quite valuable, especially when we are talking about becoming a member of Mensa.

quote:

I would also have to disagree with you that Mensans rarely speak of their membership. I've heard many, many people talk about it.

I have to agree with Richard here. I spent seven years at Berkeley and ten years at NASA and I don't know of a single person who is member of Mensa.

quote:

As was made very clear in another thread, debate about intelligence always creates high emotions and accusations of elitism, racism and many other "isms" - in a quite different way from debate about any other physical characteristic.

I don't know about that. My daughter is a fashion model and very beautiful (it's hereditary, of course). But because she is beautiful and prefers to spend time with other beautiful people she is called elitist. Go figure.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: neveu,

quote:

I have to agree with Richard here. I spent seven years at Berkeley and ten years at NASA and I don't know of a single person who is member of Mensa.

Well, perhaps you both are right. Where I've mostly heard people talking about Mensa is on the Internet, and not that much in real life. I've heard it from so many online people that I've wondered if half our population is in Mensa. Glad to hear that's not the case!

quote:

Originally posted by Richard English:

A typical pub conversation with a non-Mensa group will not stray far from football

quote:

Originally posted by Richard English:

I can only repeat that, after many years of membership and having met many Mensans, it has been my experience that Mensans generally have the ability to hold erudite conversations about a wide range of topics; many other groups and people I have met do not.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard English:

And, in answer to Arnie's comment about elitism, I can say from personal experience, that Mensa is one of the least elitist organisations I know.

You don't see just the teensy-weensiest contradiction in the above quotes?

PS Sorry for joining in late but if zm will include words like "penis" in posts then Harrow School computers are never going to see them.

(Though several boys were disciplined again for looking at hard core pornography on Russian sites which don't get picked up by the software.)

quote:

You don't see just the teensy-weensiest contradiction in the above quotes?

No.

There's your answer, Bob, get a Russian e-mail address!

I've suspected that perhaps the UK Mensa group is slightly different from the US Mensa groups. My husband is a Mensa dropout, too, JT! He talks about the arrogance, etc., as you and Asa have mentioned.

I've not taken the test. I don't have time for another group. If I need/want more social interraction with great conversations, I'll meet up with my knitting pals more often.

quote:

I've suspected that perhaps the UK Mensa group is slightly different from the US Mensa groups.

I suspect it's more a question of which local group, or SIG, you belong to, rather than where in the world you are.

Mensa was originally founded in England, but has spread worldwide under the auspices of Mensa International. But Mensa has always been a society without politics or views, merely the commonality of its members' IQ. Even national boundaries count for little; Irish Mensa is happy to consider itself as part of the same entity as British Mensa - which is unusual for the Irish who are generally quick to defend their differences from the British.

I have never met a Mensan who is arrogant about his or her IQ and it surprises me to learn that there are those around who parade their Mensa membership as if it were something that sets them above others. Had I ever experienced that then I, too, would probably have left the organisation.

quote:

it surprises me to learn that there are those around who parade their Mensa membership as if it were something that sets them above others.

Why would that surprise you? The whole point of the organization is to exclude 98% of humanity for being inferior.

quote:

Why would that surprise you? The whole point of the organization is to exclude 98% of humanity for being inferior.

This remark makes it clearer than anything that I could post, just why Mensa members keep quiet about their status, does it not? Just as in the case of the debate about the relationship between intelligence and race, we are now getting silly remarks about "inferiority, of which this is just the most recent.

If nothing else I have learnt a salutary lesson about revealing my Mensan status. I won't do it again.

Just to keep you Mensans humble, there's Intertel:
http://130.94.161.3/Intertel/

That is great, Asa.

quote:

which is unusual for the Irish who are generally quick to defend their differences from the British.

And vice versa?

Actually, several on this board have "outed" themselves, Richard, so I don't quite agree that Mensans are so hesitant to let it be known. And I don't think they should be. Intelligence is something to be proud of, if you use it wisely. I imagine many here who aren't in Mensa could be.

I used to be a professor where most of my colleagues had PhDs. However, I am now at an organization where very few have PhDs. I often hear comments like, "He thinks he's so smart just because he has a PhD!" I suppose it's somewhat the same thing.

quote:

And vice versa?

Far less so.

My frequent reminders about the differences are mainly because I believe that many people are still unaware that the UK and Ireland are separate countries.

quote:

Actually, several on this board have "outed" themselves, Richard, so I don't quite agree that Mensans are so hesitant to let it be known.

Some have, but only recently following the establishment of this thread. There are others who, even now, have kept quiet.

I admire their wisdom and wish I had been as wise.

quote:

1. belief in concept of superiority: the belief that some people or things are inherently superior to others and deserve preeminence, preferential treatment, or higher rewards because of their superiority

Encarta World Dictionary

quote:

elitism

• noun ... 2 the superior attitude or behaviour associated with an elite.

Compact Oxford

quote:

3 : consciousness of being or belonging to an elite

Merriam Webster

quote:

2. Pride in or awareness of being a member of an elite group.

Collins English Dictionary

(nb. "elite:the more powerful,rich, gifted,or educated members of a group, community etc"

ibid.)

All the above definitions have a certain similarity. Of the dictionaries that I checked only Cambridge (not quoted above) adds a usage note that it is disparaging or mainly disparaging, which I personally dispute.

I am not critcising Mensa, Mensa members or Mensan activities in any way whatsoever, but it seems to me that an organisation whose qualifying criterion is that your IQ is in the top two per cent is by definition elitist. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING. ELITISM IS NOT INTRINSICALLY WRONG (whatever some people think).

Similarly an organisation whose joining criterion was that you are in the top 2% in terms of physical strength would be elitist.
So would an organisation for the people with the top 2% of educational achievement or the top two percent of wealth.

Admission to University based on examination results is by definition elitist and that's positively A GOOD THING. The Government's apparent desire to see everyone go to University is plain nonsense as everyone having a qualification has exactly the same value as no one having it.
A-level exams are by definition elitist. Hence all the fuss about dumbing down and increased pass rates. If everybody passes they simultaneously become a)not elitist and b)
useless.

Let me repeat myself. ELITISM IS NOT INTRINSICALLY WRONG
----

However, it seems to me that remarks about the conversation of the man in the pub compared to the conversation of the man in your club automatically carry the implicit declaration of "therefore my conversation is superior" otherwise there would be no point in making the remark; there would be no comparison to remark upon. Let me make it clear that I am specifically NOT refering to Mensa here, rather to any club that has selection criteria; I am also not referring specifically to previous remarks in this thread, just using them as a good example. It's that kind of remark that leads people to use the disparaging tone when they "accuse" someone of elitism though I have to say that in the case of Mensans it's a kind of remark that have only very rarely encountered.

Hell, even being a Trekkie is a form of Elitism because of the self-belief (albeit probably unvoiced in company) that the Trekkies have that people who aren't in their club are somehow inferior or deficient in their understanding of the importance of Star Trek.

quote:

Just to keep you Mensans humble, there's Intertel:
http://130.94.161.3/Intertel/

This organisation has advertised in the Mensa magazine. I would guess that around 50% of Mensa members would qualify for Intertel membership.

But why should Mensans be humble? Humility has nothing to do with it; we are all what we are and Mensans didn't become Mensans by hard work, only by accident of genetics.

And it just occurred to me as an afterthought that all of us here on this board are elitist. Everyone one of us thinks that the ability to write structured coherent English is superior to the lack of that ability - though we might not voice it in those terms exactly.

We are welcoming, friendly and supportive but we are nevertheless elitist. Let me say for a third time ELITISM IS NOT INTRINSICALLY WRONG and remind you that "what I tell you three times is true".

Bob has voiced this very well. Elitism is not necessarily a bad thing; a belief in one's superiority over others simply because of one's birth status is quite different.

quote:

I believe that many people are still unaware that the UK and Ireland are separate countries.

Just HOW different was shown to me last week when I received an item from Ireland via post. It took only four days in transit. Stuff from the UK typically takes two weeks! Why such a difference?

quote:

This remark makes it clearer than anything that I could post, just why Mensa members keep quiet about their status, does it not? Just as in the case of the debate about the relationship between intelligence and race, we are now getting silly remarks about "inferiority, of which this is just the most recent.

Oh, please.

Intelligence is a tremendous advantage in all aspects of life. It is not some burden you share with your fellow oppressed geniuses.

I don't have a problem with elitism based on shared interests, or accomplishment (does anyone on this board??). I don't even have a problem with elitism based on hitting the genetic jackpot. I don't care if people join Mensa, or enjoy each other's company, or want to exclude some bloke because he's only in the 95%ile. But claiming Mensa membership is not based on perceived intellectual superiority is the height of disingenuous nonsense.

quote:

There are others who, even now, have kept quiet.

I admire their wisdom and wish I had been as wise.

Why, thank you, Richard.

quote:

There are others who, even now, have kept quiet.

All I know is that there are other Wordcraft members, who aren't posting in this thread, who have quietly mentioned (not bragged or pontificated...merely mentioned), in previous threads, that they are members of Mensa. I also know of at least 5 people here who have taken the preliminary tests and have been told they'd very likely get in; they've just chosen not to. While being a member of Mensa is elitist and exclusive to the general public, it is neither here.

As I posted a few years ago, when I first attempted to join, the test proctor asked if I knew my IQ from some other test. I said, "Yes, it's 73." Nonplussed, the proctor replied, "You DO understand that this is the HIGH IQ society, don't you?" "Sure, said I, that's 73 Celsius."

Post-head trauma, I no longer qualify, so I'm just a lowly mental plebeian.

Richard, will you still talk to me anyway? Despite my status, I still don't know anything about football.

quote:

But claiming Mensa membership is not based on perceived intellectual superiority is the height of disingenuous nonsense.

If having a higher IQ equates to superiority, then I admit it. I am superior.

I am also white, male and British. I take it that also makes me superior to those who have been unfortunate enough not to have been born that way.

As I have said ad nauseum, mention of intelligence arouses the kinds of emotions we have seen and I have learnt my lesson. Sadly what has been said can't be unsaid - but I wish I'd never mentioned my IQ - or, indeed, mentioned IQs at all on this, or any other, board.

Forgive me for interrupting.

The problem here appears to be, Richard, that even with the proviso that "elitism" isn't a dirty word you can't accept that Mensa is elitist while the rest of us are struggling to see how an organisation based on the top two percent of any attribute can possibly be anything else.

The very use of "top" in "top two percent" is, in most people's opinon an implicit declaration of superiority in whatever attribute is being measured. If we take the top two per cent of obesity then those people are an obese elite that the rest of us mere fatties and chubbies can only aspire to. Their obesity is superior to those who don't (literally in this case) measure up. That's what "superiority" means when applied to a single attribute be it IQ, obesity or in depth knowledge of the football league.

quote:

That's what "superiority" means when applied to a single attribute be it IQ, obesity or in depth knowledge of the football league

I agree that superiority can (and maybe should) mean something equivalent to a higher ranking or simply higher up. But most people take it to mean "better than" - and I suspect that, even on this board, there are many who are inferring just such a meaning. I do not consider that I am better than anyone by virtue of my IQ - any more than I consider myself better than others by virtue of my other, accident of birth, characteristics.

So far as elitism is concerned, I was probably using the word carelessly since, in truth, according to the precise definition of elitism that you explained so well, Mensa must be elitist. However, Mensa's professed aim is to be inclusive, not elitist or exclusive - except insofar as IQ is concerned. Providing a person has an IQ of 149 or over, he or she can join Mensa regardless of age, race, creed, sex, nationality, political affiliation, size, shape, beliefs - or, indeed, anything else. In that sense Mensa is not elitist and, as I said, I know of few (no?) other organisation that is so inclusive in that sense.

quote:

As I have said ad nauseum, mention of intelligence arouses the kinds of emotions we have seen and I have learnt my lesson.

quote:

I agree that superiority can (and maybe should) mean something equivalent to a higher ranking or simply higher up. But most people take it to mean "better than" - and I suspect that, even on this board, there are many who are inferring just such a meaning.

I think you are reading a lot into people's posts that just aren't there, Richard. I haven't seen that "emotional" perception that you have, nor have I sensed the feeling that being intelligent means that people are "better than the less intelligent people." We've been having a scintillating discussion, and we've even managed to make it word related (i.e. defining "elitism" and "superiority"). I suspect that lack of emotion on this board is because many here are in precisely the same intellectual shoes that you are, Richard, and in some cases maybe even higher ones.

quote:

Providing a person has an IQ of 149 or over, he or she can join Mensa regardless of age, race, creed, sex, nationality, political affiliation, size, shape, beliefs - or, indeed, anything else. In that sense Mensa is not elitist and, as I said, I know of few (no?) other organisation that is so inclusive in that sense.

There are plenty of organizations that focus on one attribute (let's cite "basketball talent" for the National Basketball Association, as an example), with no regard to age, race creed, sex, nationality, political affiliation, size, shape, beliefs, intelligence, or anything else. Now, you won't find many short, fat women talented enough for basketball, but they don't specifically prohibit them. Even though there are no women players, there are women referees and women reporters for the NBA. There are tons of organizations and associations like this.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

quote:

I think you are reading a lot into people's posts that just aren't there, Richard. I haven't seen that "emotional" perception that you have, nor have I sensed the feeling that being intelligent means that people are "better than the less intelligent people."

Maybe. But this comment

quote:

Why would that surprise you? The whole point of the organization is to exclude 98% of humanity for being inferior.

certainly gave me that impression. Maybe "inferiority" in this comment meant no more than someone who occupied a numerically lower situation - but I took it to mean a group that was "worse" than another.

I do not know about all organisations, of course. I said only that Mensa was one of the most "inclusive" I knew - apart from its selection by IQ. There might well be others that are such; there are surely plenty that are not.