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Picture of Kalleh
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The limerick thread has been delightful and has awakened me to my love of verses. I have always loved alliteration, and that's why I love the "flea and fly in the flue" limerick. I have learned about the dactyl rhythm. For you poetry experts, what are some other words that describe verses? I am especially looking for the word (if there is one) that describes poems with a lot of words that rhyme; for example, my poem to Shufitz had "beer", "sneer", "sincere", "fear", "dear"--is there a word to describe poems like that?
 
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Simply 'rhyming verse' as opposed to free verse. Rhyme can come at the end of the line but you can also have internal rhyme (within the line, like in 'it burgeons with virgins').

There are numerous words to describe features of poetry.

Iambic pentameter is one of my favorites. It has to do with the number of 'iambs' or 'feet' (does the Shoe fit?) in a line of verse. A 'foot' is considered a metrical unit having one unstressed syllable followed by one stressed one (eg beyond). If the line has ten syllables, ie five iambs, then it's called iambic pentameter.

here's a line from Tennyson in iambic pentameter:

Beyond the utmost bound of human thought.
 
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<wordnerd>
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I'd beg to differ a bit, muse. (Sorry to be so dilatory; I can't believe this thread didn't "click in" until now.)

In my understanding, the "foot" is the basic repeating metric unit in a poem; the iambic foot is one type of foot. The principal types are:

iambic foot (iamb): duh-DUH. Probably the most typical of spoken English. Common in Shakespeare. A sonnet is a verse consisting of fourteen line of iambic pentameter (that is, a line of five iambic feet) with a certain rhyme scheme.
- but, SOFT! / what LIGHT / through YON/der WIN/dow BREAKS? /
- when I / conSID/er HOW / my LIGHT / is SPENT /
- she WALKS / in BEAU/ty LIKE / the NIGHT /


anapestic foot (anapest): duh-duh-DUH. A vigorous galloping rhythm that pulls you along; you'll often see it in poems about horses or war.
- the asSYR/ian came DOWN / like a WOLF / on the FOLD ¦
- twas the NIGHT / before CHRIST/mas, and ALL / through the HOUSE /


trochaic foot (trochee): DUH-duh
by J.M Synge:
- LET her / LIVE to / EARN her / DINner /

dactylic foot (dactyl): DUH-duh-duh. As in our double-dactyls Big Grin
- LEW-is-y / CAR-rol-ly /
AL-ice in / WON-der-land /


[This message was edited by wordnerd on Sat Mar 8th, 2003 at 17:28.]
 
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Quite agree, W., and well put.

I commend you on how well your examples illustrate the different forms you are explaining. I also applaud the way you reference works from some of the greatest writers in the English language (Shakespeare, J. M. Synge etc) to do so.

That last uncredited writer seems to be particularly talented.
 
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quote:
what are some other words that describe verses?
Take a look at Glossary of Poetic Terms from BOB'S BYWAY.
 
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Thanks for that link, arnie. The 125-page glossary begins with ABECDARIAN POEM (ay-bee-see-DARE-ee-un) and ends with ZEUGMA (ZOOG-muh), with many internal links. It even defines
rhyme (boldface mine):

quote:
RHYME
In the specific sense, a type of echoing which utilizes a correspondence of sound in the final accented vowels and all that follows of two or more words, but the preceding consonant sounds must differ, as in the words, bear and care. In a poetic sense, however, rhyme refers to a close similarity of sound as well as an exact correspondence; it includes the agreement of vowel sounds in assonance and the repetition of consonant sounds in consonance and alliteration. Usually, but not always, rhymes occur at the ends of lines.

    Sidelight: Originally rime, the spelling was changed due to the influence of its popular, but erroneous, association with the Latin word, rhythmus. Many purists continue to use rime as the proper spelling of the word.

    Sidelight: Differences as well as identity in sound echoes between words contribute to the euphonic effect, stimulate intellectual appreciation, provide a powerful mnemonic device, and serve to unify a poem. Also, rhymes often serve to heighten the significance of the words. Terms like near rhyme, half rhyme, and perfect rhyme function to distinguish between the types of rhyme without prejudicial intent and should not be interpreted as expressions of value.

    Sidelight: Early examples of English poetry used alliterative verse instead of rhyme. The use of rhyme in the end words of verse originally arose to compensate for the sometimes unsatisfactory quality of rhythm within the lines; variations in the patterns of rhyme schemes then became functional in defining diverse stanza forms, such as, ottava rima, rhyme royal, terza rima, the Spenserian stanza and others. Rhyme schemes are also significant factors in the definitions of whole poems, such as ballade, limerick, rondeau, sonnet, triolet and villanelle.

    (See Close Rhyme, End Rhyme, Feminine Rhyme, Internal Rhyme, Masculine Rhyme)

    (See also Broken rhyme, Disyllabic Rhyme, Mosaic Rhyme, Sight Rhyme, Triple Rhyme)


Tinman

[This message was edited by tinman on Sat Mar 15th, 2003 at 5:24.]
 
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by tinman:
_In a poetic sense, however, _rhyme_ refers to a _close similarity_ of sound as well as an _exact_ correspondence; it includes the agreement of vowel sounds in assonance and the repetition of consonant sounds in consonance and alliteration. Usually, but not always, rhymes occur at the ends of lines._[QUOTE]

As an ex-Monarch, I probably could let this slide. As my slightly pedantic self, of course, I can't.

I agree that in a poetic sense, "near rhymes" are found commonly enough in the works of great artists. BUT! (and this is a big BUT for those of you who appreciate big buts) doesn't it generally seem to ring truer to both the eye and the ear when the rhyme is exact?

Alliteration has its place. Assonance has its place. Rhyming within lines definitely has its place. BUT it seems to me that there's no arguing over the superiority of a precise rhyme when one can be managed.

"Near rhymes" make me suspect the poet didn't work hard enough in his or her search for the precise words with which to express the meaning he or she is trying to express. When it appears to me that the "near rhyme" (and I apologize for the quotation marks but that term seems to be, at best, an oxymoron and, at worse, a confliction of terms) is intentional, well, then it just makes me feel all itchy inside.

Similar liberties are not taken in other fields of endeavor. Shufitz and Kalleh don't stay together because they vowed to be faithful "nearly" always. R.E. didn't purchase his Rolls with "nearly" the purchase price. If a woman has "near orgasms" every time she's intimate with a man, he doesn't stay her lover for long.

Yet, somehow, "near rhymes" have found their niche of acceptability. With most people, maybe, that is.

"Tops/pops/knot" - fine assonance. But a rhyme? Brrrrrr!
 
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Of course, much modern poetry doesn't use rhyme at all. Indeed, I asked the tutor at a poetry evening we had at my speaking club why a certain passage was poetry when it had no rhymes.

Her answer was that it "just was".

I felt that to be a reason on a par with the reasons given to suggest that most of the Turner Prize entries are art. (I seem to recall that last year's winner was a room in which the lights kept going on and off - entitled "lights going on and off")

Richard English
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard English:
Of course, much modern poetry doesn't use rhyme at all.



"Writing poetry without rhyme is like playing tennis without a net."---Robert Frost.
 
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quote:
"Near rhymes" make me suspect the poet didn't work hard enough in his or her search for the precise words with which to express the meaning he or she is trying to express.
While it pains me to do so (Razz), CJ, I must disagree with you.

As you know more than I do, there is a lot more to poetry than the rhyme. The content, word choice, meter are all so important. I refer you back to one of my earlier limericks that you graded as "incomplete" because I "rhymed" "words" with "girls". I liked that limerick a lot. The meter was right, the words were fun ("Asa", "cabeza" "cerveza"), and I liked the alliteration of "peppers" with and "dappers" with, as well as the content. My "ir" in "words" and "girls" sufficed for me.

Yet, many of the double dactyls, and I won't pick them out specifically, really don't work. The meter, especially with the names and sometimes with the 6-syllable words, is often wrong. Now, to me, that is a fatal mistake. Yet, others praise them and overlook that aspect. Therefore, it is really is a matter of individual taste, in the end.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Kalleh:
While it pains me to do so (Razz), CJ, I must disagree with you.
It doesn't pain you to disagree with me, Kalleh. You delight in it!

I refer you back to one of my earlier limericks that you graded as "incomplete" because I "rhymed" "words" with "girls". I liked that limerick a lot. The meter was right, the words were fun ("Asa", "cabeza" "cerveza"), and I liked the alliteration of "peppers" with and "dappers" with, as well as the content. My "ir" in "words" and "girls" sufficed for me.
I also liked that limerick a lot. That why I felt that, instead of just tossing it out, it deserved to be sent back to the shop for a slight repair. That limerick was like a Rolls Royce with a bad paint job - everything about it is first rate except for the finish which the first and, ultimately, only thing that catches your eye.

Yet, many of the double dactyls, and I won't pick them out specifically, really don't work. The meter, especially with the names and sometimes with the 6-syllable words, is often wrong. Now, to me, _that_ is a fatal mistake.
Amen! Amen! Amen!!

Yet, others praise them (and you'll notice I wasn't one of them!)and overlook that aspect.
When the double dactyl thread took off, I really regretted having declared myself King of the limerick thread since the DDs are so much more challenging and, therefore, enjoyable. And yes, while there is always some "wiggle room" with limericks, DOUBLE DACTYLS HAVE TO BE PRECISELY CORRECT or they're not DDs. A DD with a 7-syllable line is like a 3-minute egg that's been cooked for half an hour. By definition, it just doesn't work!

Therefore, it is really is a matter of individual taste, in the end.
With rhymes, etc., yes. With structure, Never! In some respects I will go to my grave proudly wearing the lable of "pedant" but that's just me.

 
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Thinking about CJ's comment on "near rhymes". They may have another function: the nearly-rhymed word can suggest, but leave unstated, a more precisely-rhyming one.

Brothers Guiseppe and Marco, the male leads in Gilbert and Sullivan's The Gondoliers, were raised as "men of the people". They are thoroughly anti-monarchy, and favor a republic; they are "republicans". But then it is found that one of them -- no one yet knows which -- is in fact the son of the former King of Barataria. They are spirited away, to rule jointly until the authorities can ascertain which one of them is king. Their feelings about monarchy change once they become co-monarchs.

They sing a duet -- traditionally, each ending the other's lines. [Guiseppe in bold below; Marco in regular type.] And what would you think the last word in their duet would really be? Roll Eyes
quote:

Replying, we
------------ sing
As one indi-
--------- vidual,
As I find I'm a

-------------- king,
To my kingdom I
--------------- bid you all.
I'm aware you

------------- object
To pavilions and
----------- palaces,
But you'll find I

---------------- respect
Your Republican
------------- fallacies.


"fallacies"???

[This message was edited by Hic et ubique on Sun Mar 30th, 2003 at 8:50.]
 
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Or was that a rhetorical question? Wink
 
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In British English "fallacies" rhymed with "palaces" doesn't raise an eyebrow. They are pronounced so similarly that they would be counted as a full rhyme.
 
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In doing some research for another writing project, I came across the term "sight rhyme" in regards to words that end in the same letters but are pronounced differently such as "rough" and "dough." In other words, they "rhyme" to the eye only.

I'm sure my feelings on what constitutes rhyme are well enough known so that I do not have to waste any time expressing my outrage over such an aberration as a "sight rhyme" here.
 
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Although I rate Kris Kristofferson's output Excellent in general, the following is, from the Anti-Sight-Rhyme point of view, an abomination:

Just The Other Side Of Nowhere - Kris Kristofferson
I come from just the other side of nowhere
To this big time lonesome town.
They got a lot of ice and snow here,
Half as cold as all the people I've found.
Every way I try to go here seems to bring me down.
I've seen about enough to know where I belong.

I've got a mind to see the headlights shining
On that old white line between my heart and home.
Sick of spendin' Sundays wishing they were Mondays
Sittin' in a park alone.
So give my best to anyone who's left who ever done me
Any lovin' way but wrong.
Tell 'em that the pride of just the other side o nowhere's
Goin' home.

Takin' nothin' back to show there
For these dues I've paid.
But the soul I almost sold here
And the body I've been givin' away.
Fadin' from the neon nighttime glow here,
Headin' for the light of day,
Just the other side of nowhere, goin' home.

I've got a mind to see the headlights shinin'
On that old white line between my heart and home.
Sick of spendin' Sundays wishin' they were Mondays,
Sittin' in a park alone.
So give my best to anyone who's left who ever done me
Any lovin' way but wrong.
Tell them that the pride of just the other side of nowhere's
Goin' Home.
Just the other side on nowhere, goin' home
 
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On Fri., Mar. 14, arnie posted a link to "Glossary of Poetic Terms from BOB'S BYWAY". "Sight rhyme" is included in that glossary.

Tinman
 
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<wordnerd>
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quote:
Originally posted by arnie:
In British English "fallacies" rhymed with "palaces" doesn't raise an eyebrow. They are pronounced so similarly that they would be counted as a full rhyme.

Here, "palaces" would end in a -suz syllable, "fallacies" would end with a -eez, and "phalluses" would match "palaces".

Arnie, if in England "palaces" and "fallacies" rhyme, are they pronounced as palaseeze/falaseeze or as palasuz/falasuz?
 
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quote:
are they pronounced as palaseeze/falaseeze or as palasuz/falasuz?

Neither, really. I suppose palasiz/falasiz is closest. Some people might lengthen the final syllable of "fallacies" so it sounded closer to falaseeze, but only slightly.
 
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<wordnerd>
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And would "phalluses" also rhyme with them?
 
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Yes
 
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arnie is a man of few words!
 
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