A friend just said her child has chicken pox. She said not to come over if I haven't had them yet! Funny, I thought it was one disease! Which is it?

Chicken pox is one disease, of course. However, the spots or pock-marks (or pox) are several and the plural would be accurate if it were being used to describe the pock-marks.

Richard English

Morgan, I've been thinking a lot recently - which is why my head hurts - about the frequent misuse of "media." That's a plural, not a singular, which is "medium," but few who don't know a bit about Latin grammar seem to know this. Last week I heard someone on NPR say "...a media..." The speaker clearly meant just one medium, yet he used the plural form. One hears this error constantly in less erudite speech.

Sadly Latin plurals do seem to be under threat, with medium being just the most recent.

Agendum is now rarely seen and most people use agenda for the singular and I have also seen agendas used as the plural.

One must be careful, though. Just because a word ends in "um" it doesn't mean its plural is "a". Stadium and Forum are just two examples of words that take an "s" to form the plural.

Richard English

What amuses me sometimes is people trying to be too clever. The plural of "virus" is "viruses", but I see people referring to "computer virii" -- which is not the correct Latin plural, anyway.

Other Latin-root words are ones ending in -us and -ex. E.g. The plural of 'thesaurus' is 'thesauri' and the plural of 'index' is 'indices'. However, as these words become more absorbed into the English language, they are naturalised, i.e. they can also take English plurals. So 'thesauruses' and 'indexes' are becoming increasingly acceptable.

Yes, the correct usage of Latin plurals has plagued me, too. "Agenda", as discussed, is one--and "curriculum vitae" another. I think most people just use CV because they really don't know what the plural is. And, what is the plural of "curriculum"? I have seen it "curricula", "curriculae", and "curriculums"

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard English:
Stadium and Forum are just two examples of words that take an "s" to form the plural.

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"Aha!" I say! "AHA"!!

Dictionary.com lists two entries for the plural of "stadium." One lists "stadiums" first and "stadia" second, meaning the first one is preferred but the second is acceptable. The other lists "stadia" only.

The late and often overly-pedantic sportscaster Howard Cosell would frequently refer to all the "baseball stadia" in the U.S. and most viewers would roll their eyes BUT he was correct. Of course, popular usage has caused the word "stadia" to sound stilted or overly formal and so "stadiums" is now what you hear. Even from R.E.!

And if R.E. is not only saying "stadiums" but championing its use, can "the boss' desk" be far behind??

I know I could look these up, but with all the experts here, I'm sure you can help me.

I get very confused over the usages of alumni, alumnai, alumnus, etc.

Is there a way for someone with no latin background to easily remember which of these words is which?

[This message was edited by Morgan on Sun Dec 22nd, 2002 at 19:07.]

quote:

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Originally posted by Morgan:
I know I could look these up, but with all the experts here, I'm sure you can help me.

I get very confused over the usages of alumni, alumnai, alumnus, etc.

Is there a way for someone with no latin background to easily remember which of these words is which?

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I don't really have a Latin background, except for botanical terms. My understanding is that -us is masculine, singular; -i is masculine plural; -a is feminine, singular; ae is feminine, plural. Sometimes the ending -ae/i is used to indicate both. See the usage note under alumnus at dictionary.com.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=alumnus

and for more information

The New Fowler's Modern English Usage, © Oxford University Press 1968 - alumnus (http://w1.xrefer.com/entry.jsp?xrefid=591269&secid=.-&hh=1)

Russel Hirst Associate Professor of English, The University of Tennessee, USA - Forming Greek- and Latin-derived Nouns(http://web.utk.edu/~hirst/460/nouns.html)

The Oxford Companion to the English Language, © Tom McArthur 1992 - Classical Ending
(http://w1.xrefer.com/entry.jsp?xrefid=441486)

The Oxford Companion to the English Language, © Tom McArthur 1992 - Plural (http://w1.xrefer.com/entry.jsp?xrefid=443411&secid=.-&hh=1) - scroll down to "Classical plurals"

The New Fowler's Modern English Usage, © Oxford University Press 1968 - Latin plurals (http://w1.xrefer.com/entry.jsp?xrefid=594624&secid=.-&hh=1)

Endings for Latin Nouns
(http://home.sprintmail.com/~xenexor/latin/LatinN.html)

I don't understand the last site. I only included it to show how complicated it is.

To confuse things, many adopted from foreign languages are often anglicized. Thus stoma becomes stomate and its plural, stomata becomes stomates. Sometimes both forms are used; other times only one is considered "correct". And not all "experts" agree.

quote:

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Originally posted by Morgan:
I know I could look these up, but with all the experts here, I'm sure you can help me.

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Experts? I'm certainly not an expert, and I don't know that any others on the board are, either. They are knowledgeable people, but experts? I don't know...

Experts can be wrong. Experts can have different opinions. They may present their opinions and opposing opinions, or they may only present their own as if it were established fact. I tend to take things with a grain of salt and to check it out myself as best I can. As Ronald Reagan said, "Trust, but verify". (That's about the only thing I agree with Reagan on!)

Tinman

Maybe it does. I do not subscribe to it and cannot comment. However, I was obviously referring to the plural of the modern word and I would be surprised if it didn't use a similar definition to that used by Oxford for this.

Oxford says: Stadium/ n (pl stadiums) 1. an athletic or sports ground with tiers of seats for spectators.
2, (pl stadiums or stadia) antiq. (a) a course for a foot race or chariot race (b) a measure of length, about 185 metres.

According to Oxford the commentator was wrong - unless, of course, chariot races are part of the entertainment offered at baseball events. I don't know the sport myself although I'm told it's rather like the school game we call "rounders".

And I confess that I quite fail to see the connection between the plural of "stadium" and the incorrect possessive of "boss".

Richard English

• Alumnus is the masculine singular.
  
• Alumna is the feminine singular.
  
• Alumni is the masculine plural.
  
• Alumnae is the feminine plural.
  

The problems start if you went to a co-ed school, and want to refer to a mixed-sex group. Latin (and normal English) usage is to use the masculine gender when referring to such a group, alumni.

Richard, I'm not sure about England, but at least in the U.S. you don't have to subscribe to "dictionary.com"; you just type it into the URL window. I actually like "onelook.com" (thanks to wordnerd!) better because of the plethora of dictionaries and other sources.

Thanks, Arnie (and Morgan!) for the elucidation on an issue confused by many. So--I am an alumna of UCSF, but I attend events with other alumni. However, if I had attended Smith College, I would be attending events with other alumnae.

Thank you.

Now I look at it I can see that it does show both plurals. However, if you go to the third sub-reference it seems to restrict stadia to the plurals of the achaic word and to its specialised use in measuring instruments.

I have to say, though, that it not very clear.

Richard English

incorrect possessive of "boss".
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Ah, RE, is it the same in England as it is in the USA, that the boss possesses the wealth, whilst you do the work?

While on the subject of supposedly antiquated usages, I'm quite puzzled by the fact that Webster chose to expunge from American English many diphthongs. Doing so makes it much harder to see a word's etymology, as in the case of "maneuver" in the USA, but "manoeuvre" in real English, which is identical to French. (Sorry, but I don't know how to conjoin the "o" and the "e" to represent the diphthong properly)

How about Super glue? Must say on label "especially for ligatures" (the first word I learned here on Wordcraft, thanks to arnie!)

In fact, although the dipthong is still alive and well as a pronounced sound, the printed conjoined vowel seems to be becoming far less common.

I suspect that, like the German sharp "s" (denoted by that strange character that looks a bit like a handwritten lower-case "s") conjoined vowels are disappearing. The Germans now seem to be using "ss" to represent the sharp "s" and we seem happy to leave the vowels separate. In neither case does the pronunciation of the word change.

So far as Webster is concerned, my understanding is that it was his intention to make the English language more phonetic. A laudable, but I fear impractical, aspiration!

Richard English

So far as Webster is concerned, my understanding is that it was his intention to make
the English language more phonetic. A laudable, but I fear impractical, aspiration!
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Laudable, indeed, so long as we all agree on the pronunciation of our alphabet. For example, my real name is not Asa, but Geoffrey, a name that came to England via France, and Frnnce via Germany, with several changes in spelling and pronunciation along the way. Here in the USA, few people have ever seen it spelled that way, thinking that the "G" must be pronounced hard, and not thinking that the "o" might be silent. As a result, among the less-educated (i.e. the masses) of this country, I get called all sorts of odd things!
===============================================

"Virtually everyone suffers from the deeply ingrained habit of considering language as a medium of communication."

Dmitri Borgman

Great quote, Asa! Indeed, written communication is so difficult because of not being able to see the associated nonverbal communication nor hearing the tone with which it is said. On sites like this, I fear, people can sometimes get hurt feelings when nothing of the sort was intended. That's why I like the use of emoticons.

quote:

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For example, my real name is not Asa, but Geoffrey, a name that came to England via France, and Frnnce via Germany, with several changes in spelling and pronunciation along the way. Here in the USA, few people have ever seen it spelled that way, thinking that the "G" must be pronounced hard, and not thinking that the "o" might be silent. As a result, among the less-educated (i.e. the masses) of this country, I get called all sorts of odd things!

---

As long as no one calls you a giraffe!

As long as no one calls you a giraffe!
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That, alas, is THE ONLY association most US of Americans have with it! Back in the 1970s there was a basketball player here whose name was spelled the "G" way, and the masses associated my name with his. Within a year of his retiring, people seemed to forget they'd ever seen it spelled that way!

Now, will one of you more scholarly types let us know when the "J" sound ceased to have a "Y" or "I" sound in English? Is there a good book on phonemic/alphabetic history? You Latin scholars will surely remember - at least if you're Catholic - the inscription, "INRI" above Jesus, not "JNRI.

>> the inscription, "INRI" above Jesus, not "JNRI"

That's another example of something we previously mentioned.

quote:

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Originally posted by wordnerd:
>> the inscription, "INRI" above Jesus, not "JNRI"

That's another example of something we previously mentioned.

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I just looked at your link and could not find any mention of "INRI". Am I missing something?

Tinman

Muse mused: "the plural of 'index' is 'indices':

So does it follow that the plural of the large antelope, the ibex, is ibices?

Audax, Muse!

quote:

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Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy:
Muse mused: "the plural of 'index' is 'indices':

So does it follow that the plural of the large antelope, the ibex, is ibices?

Audax, Muse!

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Ok, smart alec, "ibex" is Latin, not Greek. M-W and the AHD list the plural as "ibex" or "ibexes", but Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary lists it as "ibexes" or "ibices" (dictionary.com). I don't know if it's right, but that's what it said.

What's the "Audax"? Is that supposed to be the plural of "adieu"? That plural is "adieus" or "adieux" (AHD). If you meant something else, then I'm stumped.

Tinman

'Audax' means 'bold' in Latin. Would it be too audacious of me to ask if I am bold, Asa?

Audax' means 'bold' in Latin. Would it be too audacious of me to ask if I am
bold, Asa?
*******************************************
Bold, oh, yes! And smart! Now, where would we find an audax ibex? Got any in Greece? BTW, I misidentified the ibex as an antelope, when I should have said mountain goat.

quote:

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Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy:
Now, where would we find an audax ibex? Got any in Greece? BTW, I misidentified the ibex as an antelope, when I should have said mountain goat.

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The ibex may not be an antelope, but the addax is (something I discovered while looking for "audax" in the AHD). You won't find it in Greece, but maybe you can find an audax addax in northern in Africa.

Tinman

maybe you can
find an audax addax in northern in Africa.
************************************
And a sculptor might make an audax ibex with an adz.

Do forgive a foul canard and a mixed-metephor of animals, but I have to ask (or should i say "aks'?).

If this thread were to expire but later be revived, would we title the reviving thread Audax addax redux?

To revert to the original post: chicken pox and the measles are often bracketed together. "Measles" are, of course, plural. It may be that the speaker was confusing the two illnesses.

And, to answer my original question: Plural for "curriculum" is "curricula". I just got a draft back from my editor who adamantly let me know that! I had used "curriculums", and she says that is unacceptable.

Not according to AHD and Webster's, it isn't. But what do they know?

Webster's says that "pox" comes from "pocks" (OE. pookes) and is plural in form, but used as a singular (dictionary.com). And from The Oxford Companion to the English Language: "Some names of diseases (mumps, measles) may be treated as plural, but pox (smallpox, chickenpox, etc.) functions as singular rather than as the plural, of pock (its ultimate origin)." (http://w1.xrefer.com/entry.jsp?xrefid=443713&secid=.10.-&hh=1#s.10.-)

Oxford also says that, "Final /ks/ is normally spelt x in English, except when the /s/ is an inflection: contrast tax/tacks." (http://w1.xrefer.com/entry.jsp?xrefid=444504&secid=.4.-&hh=1#s.4.-)

Tinman

In fact, those references give "curricula" as the preferred plural with "curriculums" as an alternative.

Oxford lists only "curricula".

As we have seen in other discussions, there seems to be a tendency for the older plural formations to disappear and this might be happening to Curriculum as it has already happened to agendum. (although here the plural, "agenda" is usually taken now as the singular and a new word, "agendas" has been created for its plural.

Richard English

tinman, I only now noticed your above question of the 28th. In answer, my reference had been to the shift from I to J. Sorry about my tardy response to your question.