You all know my daughter by now. She loves to critique her mom's pronunciation, use of a word or phrase, etc. Well it happened again today. We were talking about airline flights, and I mentioned that I had felt gypped because a flight had increased so much. I vaguely knew it was a politically incorrect word (from gypsies), but she went ballistic. It is just a terrible word, she said, and how could I, and on and on.

I certainly will not ever use it again, but what is your perception of the word?

It is certainly politically incorrect to use it, but in my view, not terrible.

Ah well. I got a few notes outside of Wordcraft, which compares it with words I'd not consider using. I guess my dear, sweet daughter was right again.

It's an interesting question - well a whole series of interesting questions really, starting with

- how much should we be influenced by a word's origin when deciding if it's OK to use it?

It's a tough one to answer because words change their meaning so much over time that the link with the origin may not be at all clear. Does that actually matter? If a word was offensive when coined but has over the years grown less offensive should we still avoid it?

I don't know but it brings us on to the second question. How certain must we be of an etymology before we allow it to influence our use of it. "Gyp" is the perfect example of this. ( languagehat has a lengthy article)
Nobody knows the etymology of the word for certain though most dictionaries give it as being "probably a shortening of 'gypsy'" and it's certainly plausible.

It gets even trickier when we look at words that have been re-analysed with disproven origins. I'm thinking here of things like "nitty-gritty" which some people claim, without evidence, refers to the detritus in the bottom of a slave ship when it is far more likely a simple reduplicative formation formed from "grit". It isn't recorded anywhere in print until many many years after the slave ships had stopped. Should we not use it because some people believe this made-up origin.
You may well have heard the completely specious so-called racist origins for the perfectly innocent word "picnic". Does that fact that someone is intentionally promoting a false origin mean that we should avoid the word?

And what about words that go the other way? Words that weren't offensive but now are? If we accept that we can't use a word because it was originally offensive then does that mean that we can use a word, however offensive some find it now, if we know that it originally wasn't offensive? Surely the knife should cut both ways.

My own answer is to avoid words that I know will offend unless they are words - like nitty-gritty or picnic - where I also know that the so-called offensiveness is something that someone has just made up in which case if someone chastises me for using them I treat them to a long and very boring lecture on etymology which ensures that they never do it again.

Bob, I really appreciate this thoughtful post. The LanguageHat article was especially enlightening, and I sent it to my daughter.

The difficulty with using, or not using, "gyp" based on the fact that it could offend is that I don't know any gypsies. So I really don't know if they are offended or not. I am sure a Jew would be offended by "to jew down" or an African American would be the word "nigger." Therefore, I should probably assume that a gypsy would be as well.

It is interesting, though, to hear that it might not even originate from "gypsy."

Bob, I sent my daughter that article from LanguageHat and she has questioned the validity of that Blog. I know that it is a well respected site, but do you have any other information on it?

Before WWII a high grade paper often used for covering small model airplanes was imported from Japan, and commonly called "Jap tissue." During and post-WWII the term, "Jap" became pejorative, so now it's PC to say "japanese Tissue." The Esaki company in Japan still makes it. So long as you buy it they probably don't care what you call it.

I think it's the height of political correctness to not use a word which might offend someone when the word is entirely descriptive. Let's assume that "gyp" is derived from "gypsy" and means "to con or swindle." Gypsy culture is dedicated to doing exactly that to non-gypsies. Entire towns in the southern US are inhabited by itinerant swindlers called Travelers who move through the country offering to paint houses or seal driveways or fix furnaces. Then they either abandon the job or do substandard work while collecting (and often, stealing) money from those they dupe. They're a closed society who while in their winter home avoid contact with non-members.

Here is what Wiki says

If you want to avoid using the word, then you won't be able to mention these.

Languagehat is a well regarded language site. It's been around for about ten years and even the briefest of explorations will show that it is a serious and well-researched site. It is written by Stephen Dodson about whom I know very little. Languagelog, probably the most respected language site of all includes it in the blogroll and frequently references it in the text.

Just looking around the site should convince anyone of its validity. It always includes references to source material and, in the case of that article, poses nothing that could even be considered contentious. It's an easily checkable fact that most dictionaries gloss "gyp" as "probably" from gypsy rather than "definitely".

Of course, though I'd be the last one to encourage family arguments, it's human nature to question the validity of anyone who disagrees with you.

Neither languagehat not I are saying that it's OK to use "gyp", merely that there are questions to be asked whenever someone chooses to proscribe a word.

Steve (at Languagehat) did graduate work for years in linguistics, but is ABD AFAIK. His was one of the first blogs I ever read with regularity. He has worked for years as an editor. I have personally seen very little evidence that his blog entries are not well-written and well-researched.

quote:

I think it's the height of political correctness to not use a word which might offend someone when the word is entirely descriptive.

Proof, descriptive or not, I was struck by the point that there is no proof at all that it comes from the word "gypsy." I loved Bob's comparison to "picnic" and "nitty-gritty," and I told my daughter about those words. Oftentimes novices are so quick to believe what they hear, without checking it out. While my daughter questioned LanguageHat (I've set her straight...and thanks!), her authority was her high school teacher who likened it to "jew down."

quote:

Of course, though I'd be the last one to encourage family arguments, it's human nature to question the validity of anyone who disagrees with you. On the other side, I am convinced, as LanguageHat was, that I shouldn't be using it, and I won't.

Oh, don't worry about that. My daughter and I are on the same wavelength generally, and this discussion has been fun, more than anything. She actually belongs on this site, but I don't think she wants to post with mom. I get that!

Interesting.

I wrote

quote:

Of course, though I'd be the last one to encourage family arguments, it's human nature to question the validity of anyone who disagrees with you.
Neither languagehat not I are saying that it's OK to use "gyp", merely that there are questions to be asked whenever someone chooses to proscribe a word.

but as quoted this became

quote:

Of course, though I'd be the last one to encourage family arguments, it's human nature to question the validity of anyone who disagrees with you. On the other side, I am convinced, as LanguageHat was, that I shouldn't be using it, and I won't.

Wonder how that happened.

quote:

Originally posted by Proofreader:
If you want to avoid using the word, then you won't be able to mention these.

No, we're not talking about "gypsy", we're talking about "gyp".

quote:

Originally posted by BobHale:
Interesting.

I wrote

quote:

Of course, though I'd be the last one to encourage family arguments, it's human nature to question the validity of anyone who disagrees with you.
Neither languagehat not I are saying that it's OK to use "gyp", merely that there are questions to be asked whenever someone chooses to proscribe a word.

but as quoted this became

quote:

Of course, though I'd be the last one to encourage family arguments, it's human nature to question the validity of anyone who disagrees with you. On the other side, I am convinced, as LanguageHat was, that I shouldn't be using it, and I won't.

Wonder how that happened.

It looks as if it's just a misplaced close-quote tag. the [/quote] should follow the words "...who disagrees with you."

I was going to say much the same thing, only my second sentence to that paragraph would have been, "I question the judgment of anyone who questions the validity of Languagehat!"

Wordmatic

A couple of thoughts on this subject:

I agree with you that I am not at all sensitized to the impropriety of saying "gypped" or "what a gyp," because I don't think I have seen an actual Gypsy since I was a child and saw some Gypsy pedlars in my hometown. But these days, I would be much more likely to say "what a rip-off." My husband and I have had a similar discussion about the verb "to welsh." Once I said to him that someone had "welshed on a deal." It never occurred to me that this might be offensive to Welsh people. He is of partial Welsh descent and said that that expression was most un-PC! Now I'll have to look up the etymology to see if it actually is offensive in origin. Of course, it's just as easy to say "backed out of a deal."

As for the expression you mentioned, Kalleh, which means to bargain down in price, do you remember the Father Guido Sarducci bit from Saturday Night Live in which Father Guido recounts purchasing the 12 disciples' check from "The Last Breakfast?" The person selling this "holy relic" was asking a high price, but, said Father Guido, "I Presbyterian-ed him down..." The thing about the expression "to Presbyterian someone down" is that nobody cares if anyone offends Presbyterians! Or do they? Well, at least I don't. As a Protestant myself, I think the joke is probably richly deserved, since stuffy WASPS in general are probably as guilty as anyone of using the phrase being satirized.


Wordmatic

This message has been edited. Last edited by: wordmatic,

Ah, and here, right to the point, from the comment thread in the Languagehat article about "Gyp" are remarks from an actual Welshman regarding the verb "to welsh:"

quote:

"Welsh" as verb does indeed mean "duck out of an obligation" and is certainly a straightforward racial slur.

On the other hand, none of the Welsh people that I know (I am part Welsh and live in Wales) seems in the least bothered by it. Perhaps there is a feeling that deviousness is a perfectly measured response to all these illegal-immigrant English who have temporarily planted themselves in Lloegr. Back to Jutland with the lot of them, I say! Cymru am byth!

[More likely reflects the absence of any contemporary active persecution, although a close relative of mine was sufficiently teased about being Welsh in school in England a generation ago to deny being Welsh most of her life thereafter.]
Posted by: David Eddyshaw at September 7, 2010 05:31 AM

WM

I would like to stick up for minorities that are unreasonably used perjoratively without thinking of how they might feel about it. For example, how about "drunk as a skunk"? I, as a zoo docent, know from personal experience that skunks are among the most temperate animals on the planet. They would never imbibe to the esxtent that someone would notice and 86 them.

"Mean as a rattlesnake" is another. Sure, a snake will bite you but it's usually because you either stepped on him or interrupted a sex act (which may also involve stepping on him).

Let's leave animals out of our less than stellar conversations.

quote:

It looks as if it's just a misplaced close-quote tag.

That's exactly what happened, WM.

I don't remember "Presbyterian-ed him down," but I think I'll use it with my daughter to see if that gets to her, as well.

I was certainly warned off the phrase "welshing on a deal" some time ago.

I must admit I've never come across "gyp" in the sense being discussed - is it mainly a US thing? The only sense in which I'm familiar with the word is in the slang phrase "giving me gyp", meaning causing pain or discomfort, but this appears to have no connection with the other sense - see here.

quote:

Let's leave animals out of our less than stellar conversations.

Bull market, bear market, (Wall Street), birdie, eagle, (golf), turkey, skunk, weasel, fox, wolf, (common slang) Sorry, Proof, but animals are too well embedded in our cultural mythos to omit them. However, we can surely emulate Uncle Remus and respectfully call them "br'er fox, br'er rabbit, etc...

quote:

"giving me gyp", meaning causing pain or discomfort, but this appears to have no connection with the other sense

Very interesting, Guy. I don't think it's used that way in the U.S., is it, Americans?

Guy is right. The primary sense in the UK is pain or discomfort. The sense of "cheat" is used occasionally but isn't widespread, though it is considered offensive here. I've never heard of anyone considering "giving me gyp" offensive though I don't know the etymology for it.

According to the article I linked to:

"The sense of pain seems to be connected with a northern English dialect word, variously spelled gip or jip, that only ever appeared in the form 'to give somebody or something jip'. [...] We’re not certain where it comes from, but the English Dialect Dictionary gives one sense of the word as 'to arouse to greater exertions by means of some sudden, unexpected action'. That fits with the suggestion in the Oxford English Dictionary that it’s a contracted form of gee-up, a conventionalised version of the cry one utters to get a horse to move."

The article also mentions "gyppy (or gippy) tummy", a slang term for diarrhoea used in the UK and elsewhere. This comes from "Egyptian" and so has the same roots as "gypsy".