I'm confused (what's new) about non-meat-eaters' calling themselves vegans instead of vegetarians. If one abstains from animal-derived food, isn't one by definition a vegetarian? So what the heck is a vegan? Yeah, yeah, I know about the business of "vegetarians" eating eggs and drinking milk, but that just means they aren't actually vegetarians, doesn't it?

Omniverous Asa

No, I see a difference, Asa. After all, a cow doesn't have to die to give milk or a hen doesn't have to die to lay an egg. A vegetarian, at least from my point of view, doesn't want to eat food from killing an animal. A vegan, on the other hand, doesn't want to eat anything from an animal.

We invited a vegan family over for dinner once. We both had small children. Think about a good dinner for young children where there are no animal based foods. It doesn't exist!

There is huge confusion about the word in the UK. I would say most use it to mean somebody who doesn't eat meat or fish, but probably does eat cheese and eggs and drinks milk. However, loads of people have their own special ideas - eating fish or even poultry being allowed by some; wearing leather being disallowed by others. I don't use the word any more: it is quicker to affirm that I don't eat mushrooms, meat or fish.

Many aggressively use vegetarian as a word to describe food that non-meat eaters have to eat if offered it. I quite often find myself saying something along the lines of, "No thank you. I wouldn't like a piece of that dark-brown faecal-matter pie," only to have a puzzled reply of, "but it's vegetarian."

a cow doesn't have to die to give milk or a hen
doesn't have to die to lay an egg.
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Yet an egg is an embryo containing animal protein, so what's the difference? As for milk, well, we ARE mammals, thus milk producers, so I figure we're supposed to drink the stuff.

Graham, remind me never to invite you over for pie! Do I properly surmise that you'd call yourself a vegetarian?

Just to confuse (or perhaps broaden) the issue, some people refer to themselves as 'lacto-vegetarians'!

For the record, the type of pie mentioned is not found on our vegetarian menu!

Out of interest, are there really vegetarians (by whichever name) that do not eat mushrooms? And if so, why not?

Tadpole.

Tadpole

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Yet an egg is an embryo containing animal protein, so what's the difference? As for milk, well, we ARE mammals, thus milk producers, so I figure we're supposed to drink the stuff.

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Aren't the eggs we eat usually unfertilised and hence incapable of developing to e real live chicken ?

Glaubt es mir - das Geheimnis, um die größte Fruchtbarkeit und den größten Genuß vom Dasein einzuernten, heisst: gefährlich leben.
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.

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Originally posted by Kalleh:

We invited a vegan family over for dinner once. We both had small children.

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That seems a very odd choice of menu in the circumstances.

Glaubt es mir - das Geheimnis, um die größte Fruchtbarkeit und den größten Genuß vom Dasein einzuernten, heisst: gefährlich leben.
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.

I don't know...lightly grilled with some sage sprinkled here and there....?

Tadpole

Only if they're Irish children, acording to Swift.

Now, as to consuming unfertilised ova, 'tis true, but there's still animal protein in such things.

Now I'm just a Tad more confused, but less pole-rised in my thinking.

You see, all you omnivores are looking for logic and consistency from those who you'd like to label vegetarians: puzzling over whether you should let us eat eggs (I do); wandering why we might not eat mushrooms (I don't as they are puke). I wouldn't call myself a vegetarian expecting to have my personal dietary whims satisfied, so I don't bother anymore.

John Peel (who was our greatest living Englishman, until he realised) justified the eating of eggs by saying they were just hen's periods, in a convenient form. No non-meat-eater should ever bother justifying their diet, but this is at least something for those interested in animal protein to consider.

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John Peel (who was our greatest living Englishman,

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Are you referring to the Cumbrian huntsman or the disk jockey?

The latter, though I want to write disc jockey. Am I wrong?

I had heard of the former because of the song, but until today I was totally unaware of the latter.

Internet immersion can be such a broadening experience!

I tend to favor "disc" over "disk," too, Graham. And I wonder how either a huntsman or a disc jockey became an authority on the eating of eggs.

And did he mean "period" in the sense of reproductive cycles, or "full stop," as some English speakers term the dot that would be at the end of this sentence if it were declarative rather than interrogative?

~~~ jerry

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And did he mean "period" in the sense of reproductive cycles, or "full stop,"

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The former I'd guess. The latter is only used by Americans.

So far as I can see from http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=disk and other online dictionaries, disk or disc is optional.

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Originally posted by jerry thomas:
I tend to favor "disc" over "disk," ...

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I thought I had it figured out, at one time. Here's what Wikipedia and the AHD have to say about it. I haven't checked the OED.

Tinman

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
[...]

Think about a _good_ dinner for young children where there are no animal based foods. It doesn't exist!

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I can.

Chef Rodda

I tend to favor "disc" over "disk," ...
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DISQUE! Sounds ever so much classier!

ISTM that the only hard-and-fast spellings are:

CD Compact Disc
DVD Digital Versatile Disc
floppy disk
hard disk (not hardrive, please!)

The others are subject to the vagaries of local spellings.

The first two, because they're trade names registered by Philips, the second two (firstly the Americans amongst us won't notice because in the UK we tend to spell computer disks like that so we can tell the difference between them and gramophone¹ records etc., just like television, cinema, concert and theatre programme and computer program.

1. Phonograph

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Originally posted by the_bear:
hard disk (not hardrive, please!)

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Why not hard drive?
Are they different...however they are spelled?

Tadpole

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I can.

Chef Rodda

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I'll bite, Bear. What? I served lentil soup with bread. However, when I thought about it later, the bread probably had eggs and milk.

When you said vegetarian children, presumably you didn't mean vegan, and I'd be very surprised if commercial bread contained anything as natural as egg or milk (bread doesn't normally contain egg, anyway), and only if the children were vegan would it have mattered.

Let's see:

We could do the most boring of the vegetarian cop-outs, vegetarian lasagne. On the other hand, we could do a complete vegetable curry, complete with many bhajis.

Of course it also depends upon their ages. Most children from about eight or so have actually got quite sophisticated tastes; just be careful with strong flavours, because they have more taste buds than we do and anything that's strongly-flavoured should be used with care.

Chickpeas with courgettes, aubergine and sweetcorn, in a thick tomato and coriander (I think you call that cilantro) sauce with a cheese and herb crust with baked potatoes and sour cream with chives and a mixed salad, served with mayonnaise.

Chocolate steamed pudding with custard.

There you go.

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... and a mixed salad, served with mayonnaise.

Chocolate steamed pudding with custard.

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It would be a real challenge to a chef to ask him to make mayonnaise and custard with no eggs.

Both these are available commercially.

I buy them because I am far too lazy to be bothered to make them, which I can.

There is also a product I buy, the name of which will entertain you all. It is an egg replacement substance. It is called:
'NoEgg'

So, a trip to the shop will result in my being obliged to cringe and ask, 'Have you got 'NoEgg' please?'

And they either reply 'Yes we have NoEgg', or they totally confound me with a multiple negative 'No, we ain't got no NoEgg'..does that mean they have got it or they haven't?

Don't forget vegetarian jelly, by the way!

Tadpole



Tadpole

[This message was edited by Tadpole on Sat Sep 20th, 2003 at 9:49.]

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When you said vegetarian children, presumably you didn't mean vegan, and I'd be very surprised if commercial bread contained anything as natural as egg or milk (bread doesn't normally contain egg, anyway), and only if the children were vegan would it have mattered.

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The whole family was vegan; otherwise, it would have been easy. My daughters are vegetarians.

I have made bread before, and my recipe (from my grandmother) has eggs. When you look at the ingredients on commercial breads, they do include eggs and milk. In fact, because of the demand of customers, bread has become much healthier recently...and less processed.

You do have some great ideas, though! My meal was quite boring and not well eaten. I believe I had a gelatin for dessert.

[This message was edited by Kalleh on Sat Sep 20th, 2003 at 10:18.]