Cacography is a sadly ignored word these days. It comes from the Greek kakos, bad, and graphos, writing. When it appeared in the 16th century it meant "bad spelling". Cacography was seen as the opposite of orthography -- "correct spelling". A century later it took on the additional meaning of "poor handwriting", the antithesis of calligraphy -- "fine handwriting" -- note the connection with our friend callipygous!

Whilst I am not guilty of the first meaning of the word -- although I wish the same could be said of my computer -- I must confess to being something of a cacographer when it comes to the second meaning.

Arnie, computer savvyed or not, we have to admit that the most paradoxical of our perverse devices is our keyboard. Look ...

It "clarifies" your cacographies to skim just what you say, coding it in an innocent calibrated calligraphy. Yes but ...

... but, it conceals at the same time what you don't say, but what you are from the bottom of your heart, and that any graphologist will never be able to "elucidate".

This mephitic Keyboard proves that sometimes, a "clarification" allows to forbid an "elucidation" ...

oOOWwo!! Nooooo!

safi

Well, I must admit, Safi, that your reply eludes me a bit! You are excellent at pulling together our various threads.

Arnie, I love posts purely about words, and this one is first-rate because it is new to me. Thanks! I have to admit to being a bit cacographic (a word? my dictionary did not think so) at times. However, I cannot tell you the problems I have had with my cacographic computer because I am in the medical profession. Since I use a lot of terms and abbreviations that my computer doesn't know, it automatically changes some of them. My favorite is a common abbreviation we use for single lung transplant--SLT; my computer changes it to sit every time.

A question: Does cacography have any relationship to cacophony? My source gave no roots to the former word, though stated that cacophony came from French cacophonie and Greek kakophonia.

Kalleh, upon checking, the sources I found on cacography and cacophonous get a little convoluted.

For cacophonous AHD gives an etymology tracing back to the greek kakos = bad.
For cacography AHD gives no etymology, but with digging you can find that Quinlon gives one, tracing it as well to the same kakos = bad.

So far so good, but: AHD's clickable link say that kakos in turn traces to kakka- meaning "to defecate" (an that poppycock is a further derivative). Quinlon however denies the defecation connectiona: he says that cacography "has nothing to do with our cack-handed, which derives from Old English cack, 'excrement'." (AHD gives a completely different explanation for "cack-handed".) It appears that in many languages, "caca" is baby talk for "excrement".

In the course of this I came across a word new to me: caconym: a erroneous name; a misnomer.

On the calli- side, it seemed to me that "California" might come from that root, but I was unable to find an etymology for it. The best I can find is this; can any spanish-scholars help?

quote:

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The name California was taken from Ordoñez de Montalvo’s romance of chivalry Las Sergas de Esplandian (Madrid, 1510), in which is told of black Amazons ruling an island of this name "to the right of the Indies, very near the quarter of the terrestrial paradise."

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I had never heard these words before, so thank you for bringing them to my attention. I am guilty of problems with spelling. I wouldn't say poor spelling, because I am extremely careful with that. I have a dictionary nearby at all times. However, I find when a word befuddles me, and I am typing and do not have time to look it up, often I will use a different word or phrase to get my meaning across.

There is a taboo in many cultures world-wide about use of the left hand. The right hand is used for eating, the left is reserved for personal hygiene. It is considered bad form at the minimum to use the left hand for certain tasks. We see this to this day in our Western culture in the custom of shaking hands. It is considered rude to shake hands using the left. If you go to a Bedouin feast, do not pick up your sheep's eyeball with your left hand if you want to last out the meal.

Since the left hand was reserved for cleaning oneself, it is easy to see how it became known as the "cack-hand", and that is the etymology I heard. The AHD etymology is new to me. I can't find a source at present -- I'll do some research and perhaps report back.

The "cac" root appears in many languages and would seem to date back to the Indo-European proto-language. It is not surprising that the word for such a basic function should survive; we all have to do it.

[This message was edited by arnie on Fri Aug 9th, 2002 at 1:11.]

I'm not fond of words useless cacophonies Kalleh, don't be worried. I'm not found of noises and confusions, not at all. I'm not fond of paradoxical provocations, out of pure ... mischief. I'm an enemy of Entropy.

So ... why such caco-replies, do you think so loudly ?

Reply :
With as much humour I can (sorry if, sometimes, I'm too frenchy or too laborious), I just try to share a passion. Let's observe how, beyond words (significants), between them, meanings are so much intricated. Let's elucidate synonymous links and differences. Let's investigate links between antagonisms, analogies, ... and between words in all these figures Arnie is so well-advised to be fond of : Anticlimax, Antithesis, Euphemism, Hyperbole, Irony , Metaphor, Metonymy, Onomatopoeia, Oxymoron, Paradox, Simile, Synecdoch, ... (Stop ! Is Arnie epicurean
or masochistic ?).

For a rapid glance, it seems that Words are littles boxes and dictionnaries garrets. But in space of semes and sememes, meanings are so much more alive and intermingled in a deep moving network.

Parenthesis : It is not without reasons if internet engines are so much in pain, Google too. Web software engineers have begun to introduce semantic in web documents to help engines to ... skim the net with a little bit more pertinence. See the XML technolgy after the familiar HTML one. Sorry for this tech parenthesis.

My previous reply was not at all out of place in this Arnie's topic, but highly respectuous of it and him. Look at this ... I promise you dear word lovers, that this is not a joke, neither a rest of conundrum badly elucidated. Arnie have explain you, how to use your left and right hand ?

Let's go ... where's my dictionary ... ha of course ... right under my nose.

Here are meanings of the verb "safi" "isafi" in one of the more sumptuous language of civilization, the language where calligraphy has reached summits of art, the arabic :

[Safi][iSafi] (emphatic S, long alef, long sounded ended i)

verb : to purify, to cleanse, to clear, to clean,
to wipe out, to mop out, to polish off,
to leach (leach out salts), to rid, to refine,
to clarify, to filter,
to lixiviate (chemistry/pedology : to separate soluble materials
by a washing process),
to comb out, to drain (with a colander),
to strain (filter a liquid),
to liquidate, to close out, to determine,
and .. to defecate

Naturally because "to separate" "kaka" from body, is to clean it, indeed to purify it. Respect millenary usages dear friends, take paper if you are right-handed.

I write here "safi", "isafi", .. in latin transliteration, but if you want to see them and other flexions, in arabic writing system look at :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jef.dezafit/safi_bbl_ara_e.htm

I give here some arabic online dictionnaries. Try the ALMISBAR one and its virtual keyboard (to filter cacographies in arabic calli-fonts).

If you want to discover this "SAF" lexeme in other languages and especially in semitic ones ... enter by the menu at :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jef.dezafit/safi.htm

Welcome in my net-home, dear word lovers,
and treat the place as your own !


safi

I think it is by accident that Garcia Ordonez Rodriguez de Montalvo named his island "California", and its queen "Califia"; there seems to be no connection with the Greek kalli for beautiful.

"Cacographie" is not familiar in everyday speaking, neither in writing, but it is lexicalized in our common french dictionaries. It is a bad and dirty writing, by spelling, and/or style, and/or drawing.

But what about "calligraphie" ?

1 - "calli-" is "kallos" (beauty) and "-graphy" is "graphein" (to write). OK, like english.

2 - "calame" is the french name of the "sharpenned reed" used to write in antiquity (for example, to write cuneiforms on boulder clay)
I've not found its translation in english, have you ?

3 - In latin, everybody knows the "lapsus linguae" when speaking, but do you know its equivalent "lapsus calami" when writing ?
It is a sort of latin "cacography".

So, if latin "calim-" and greek "kall-" are not a phonological coincidence, but two words affiliated to a common root meaning "beautiful writing" for example (calligraphy is a very old art http://www.al-bab.com/arab/visual/calligraphy.htm), these two roots are synonymous and "calligraphy" ... ho Arnie, a sticked-pleonasm !?

How to name such construction, when pleonasm members are joined ?



safi

quote:

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"calame" is the french name of the "sharpenned reed" used to write in antiquity (for example, to write cuneiforms on boulder clay)
I've not found its translation in english, have you ?

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The English equivalent is calamus. See http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=calamus

The word comes from the Greek kalamos, reed, and has no connection with kallos, beauty.

So... We read writing written with a reed?

Good "dictionary", I don't knew it, I bookmark your url. Its AskJeeves extensions are treasures !
http://dictionary.directhit.com/dictionary/search.php?qry=calamus

I always use http://www.bartleby.com/ for english, what do you think about it ? What are the best free online english dictionaries at your opinion, according to the goal : etymology, linguitic, synonymous, history, etc ?

P.S. : If "calam-" is the pen, not "the writting", sure "calligraphy" is not a "sticked pleonasm" (I don't know if the name of such construction exist !?).

Cordially I'm preparing what follows in
"clarify and/or elucidate" topic ... So long.

safi

Bartleby.com is useful, but I generally prefer Dictionary.com because it gives definitions from at least two dictionaries, The American Heritage Dictionary and Webster's, instead of just the former, admirable though that work may be.

I don't have any "specialist" dictionaries bookmarked; if I have a need for such a resource I'll usually Google for it.

I'm afraid I'm having trouble with your phrase "sticked-pleonasm". "Pleonasm" is using more words than necessary, a tautology. Examples would be "a tiny little girl", "a fast, swift ship" or "a wicked, bad wolf". Even if we were to assume that kalamos and kallos are related, a calamus is an implement used in writing, whereas graphos means the writing itself. The is no real tautology here.

There is no such word in English as "sticked". The past participle is stuck. Do you possibly mean stacked?

I think it is by accident that Garcia Ordonez Rodriguez de Montalvo named his island "California", and its queen "Califia"; there seems to be no connection with the Greek kalli for beautiful.
________________________________________

If you've ever been to the US State of California, you'll quickly learn that there's NO connection there! Maby Kakafornia...

I am reminded of the sisyphus beetle, or dung beetle. It is said that some of those beetles, who roll balls of dung around, are not opposed to sharing. Their favorite expression is "Mi caca es su caca."

Going wayyyyyy back up there to something Arnie said earlier today:

quote:

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It is considered rude to shake hands using the left.

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I very seldom extend my hand to shake others, although there are business situations, where I must. However, I shake hands with the left. I had carpal tunnel surgery on my right, and find that most men squeeze much too hard for my tender hand. However, I find extending the left, or "replying" to an extended right hand, with my left, usually confuses people. I end up having to explain my motives.

I have found most women are uncomfortable with the whole hand shaking process. It seems to me a man's custom. Comments?

Latin for "left" is "alia," thus alien. Italian is "sinestro," thus sinister. French is "gauche," and we English speakers use that as clumsy or tactless. Lefties get a bum rap!

Hey, Asa? You wouldn't be left handed would you?

i don't like having to shake hands. luckily i am left handed or i would also be worrying about them destroying my livelihood, too (i'm an artist). being forced to greet people at their insistance is wrong, i think. i would like to kiss the cheeks of people i want to kiss, hug others, but for someone i want to get away from, i would like to break into a run. is that acceptable? letitia baldridge? anyone?

i would like to kiss the cheeks of people i want to kiss, hug others, but for someone i want to get away from, i would like to break into a run. is that acceptable?
___________________________________

Ahhh, an honest woman! Diogenes would have loved you! And in your right mind, too! (left handed)

As for cheek kissing, go to safi's country and get all you want!

Ambidextrous Asa

is just perfect. wicked and bad are needed.

quote:

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As for cheek kissing, go to safi's country and get all you want!

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Ahh! Is that true, Safi? If so, I love cheek kissing, and France here I come!

quote:

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Ambidextrous Asa

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Does this mean you can't make up your mind?

quote:

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Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy:
Latin for "left" is "alia," thus alien. Italian is "sinestro," thus sinister. French is "gauche," and we English speakers use that as clumsy or tactless. Lefties get a bum rap!

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Actually, Latin for "left" is sinister. Alia is used when referring to the left hand, but only to avoid using the word sinister because of its unpleasant connotations. Alia means other, different.

* Edited to add: I've now seen your post in the "lefties" thread!

[This message was edited by arnie on Sun Aug 11th, 2002 at 2:30.]

there's a thing in george eliot's middlemarch about how bad doctor's writing is. i've wondered that myself, why they alone are allowed this as a conceit. the book said something about their coming up in public schools that felt good handwriting was in poor taste and rather like a scribe. they wouldn't lower themselves.

does anybody know if that's true?

Definition of "lawyer": a nice jewish boy who can't stand the sight of blood.
[told to me by a jewish lawyer, btw]

****Chuckle****

****Chuckle****

I have also wondered why a doctor's writing has to be so bad. What if the pharmacist mistakes it and gives the wrong medicine? ‡

Welcome J.W.! Glad to see you on the board!

As far as a doctor's handwriting, I know here in New York State they have really cracked down on that problem. I have heard my pharmacist on the phone clarifying doctor's prescriptions. My own doctor has very nice handwriting. I always make sure I can read a script and the instructions before I leave the office. I feel it is every bit the patient's responsibility to make sure they have the correct meds too!

quote:

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I have also wondered why a doctor's writing has to be so bad. What if the pharmacist mistakes it and gives the wrong medicine? ‡

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As your icon at the end most subtly notes, the patient would then have a heavy double-cross to bear.

(all right, my puns can't all be good)

Seriously, you would not believe how many medication errors are made because of bad handwriting and then nurses or pharmacists trying to guess what they mean. IMHO, the resultant errors should be the fault of the writer, as well as the reader; however, it usually is the nurse (the one administering the medication) who gets sued, fired, and loses his/her license. Fortunately, health care is now beginning to realize that these kind of errors are due to the system, rather than the individual.
In fact, one of the reasons I have not been posting for the last few days is that I have been at a conference where we are addressing some of these problems. (Fortunately, I finally found a computer that can access the internet!)

Sooooooooooo happy to see you posting Kalleh!

Also glad that this is a problem that is being addressed. It truly is a serious problem. As I stated earlier, it is as much the patient's responsibility as it is the doctor's. You need to watch out for yourself.

Reverting back to Morgan's point, "the whole hand shaking process. It seems to me a man's custom. Comments?"

Did some research. The custom can be traced back to Egypt in 2800 B.C., but there is speculation of an earlier origin. In times when "might made right", two strangers coming upon each other unexpectedly would each draw his knife or dagger, to be at-the-ready if needed. If and when they concluded that they could be peaceable, each would sheathe his weapon and confirm this by displaying his empty weapon hand (the right hand) to the other. This is also suggested as the reason that women, never the bearers of weapons, never developed the handshake custom.

From the web: It's belied that the Quakers firot popularized the handshake as a greeting, rather than grander gestures like bowing, hand kissing and sweeping one's hat.

quote:

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From the web: It's belied that the Quakers firot popularized the handshake as a greeting, rather than grander gestures like bowing, hand kissing and sweeping one's hat.

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I don't know about bowing or the hat thing, but hand kissing sounds kinda nice! Are you out there safi? How do you greet a lady in France?

To greet ladies in France ? Sure, as delicat as everywhere else in univers :

1 - If she is my little sister, I greet her like my brothers with as many cheek kisses as it's possible (in usual decencies limits).

2 - If she is my mother, I wait her turn to phone. I don't want at all she lie when she always say to everybody I'm an ungrateful son.

3 - If she is my chief manager, I shake her hand, keeping a straight face, even if I can't garanty my delays and my costs, ...yes, especially if I can't !?

4 - If she is my forever unique loving tender ..., I try to have the gesture she's waiting but not at the moment she's waiting it. I try but she is so eager ... and I'm so ... gauche.

5 - If she is Morgan arriving at the airport ... hmm don't know !? ... first a pint of plain should be ... but immediately ... should depend on expression in her eyes, sure !

Safi

quote:

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5 - If she is Morgan arriving at the airport ... hmm don't know !? ... first a pint of plain should be ... but immediately ... should depend on expression in her eyes, sure !

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Where did you find those WONDERFUL Graemlins?

Morgan, I agree that Safi says the sweetest things!

As I read your different greetings, Safi, I thought--only the French are that unique and sensitive with their greetings. Or, perhaps it is just that Americans are not.

As I read your different greetings, Safi, I thought--only the French are that unique and sensitive with their greetings. Or, perhaps it is just that Americans are not
________________________________________

The "great love of my life" was a French woman. We very seldom greeted each other with cheek kisses, but her friends greeted me that way. As for how I greeted her, well, I am sure that safi can explain!

By the way, here's a little geography quiz, and no fair telling them, safi! My former lover came from the town where Leonardo da Vinci is buried. Where is it, and what is its name

quote:

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By the way, here's a little geography quiz, and no fair telling them, safi! My former lover came from the town where Leonardo da Vinci is buried. Where is it, and what is its name

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Well, Asa, I did a little bit of looking (five minutes) and I found three different answers! All sources agree that he died on May 2nd, 1519 and was buried the following August in the monastery of Saint Florentine in Amboise. However, these same three sources say his remains did not remain there.

The first source states, "...his mortal remains were to be scattered during the Wars of Religion."

The second source states, "After destruction of the church and parts of the castle the mortal remains of Leonardo da Vinci were transferred to the Chapel of St. Hubert."

And the third source states, "...was buried in the Church of St. Valentine at Amboise, France."

So, I guess the answer you were looking for was Amboise, France. But where he really is? Who knows!

wasn't that where his house was, courtesy of the French Crown? i was there but it was a long time ago (maybe 1512) but i don't remember what was said regarding that. it seems like they said he left it up to his lover (who posed for the Mona Lisa) to dispose of his remains. maybe back in Italy.

wfc,

quote:

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i was there but it was a long time ago (maybe 1512)

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You were there in 1512?

Either you are much older than I had assumed or you have a time machine. Did you meet Leonardo?

he was very sweet, but pretty absent-minded. he never finished things. but he was as kind as he was brilliant, and an excellent host.

And how old are you???

quote:

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As I read your different greetings, Safi, I thought--only the French are that unique and sensitive with their greetings. Or, perhaps it is just that Americans are not.

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Kalleh. If love is still love, women are still women, and men are still "mad", I'm sure there is the same proportion of clumsy lovers (men and women) on both sides of atlantic.
(Is it necessary to Google about that hypothesis ? )

So what ! What is this ... so irritating french old-fashioned courting way ?

One reason, I think, is simply we have not the same words to speak about our respective experiences of this so subtle art. Our french words are culturaly often made of "romantism" and "shamelessness", made of "amour courtois" (literaly "of courteous love ?") and sometimes too "d'amour vache" (literaly "of nasty love ?")

A second reason, about this subject like many others (you say all others ?), is that French refuse to need advices from anybody else. This is the reason why we are so often felt as arrogant, annoying or pedant, when we are ... so innocently ... only proud of ourselves.

To illustrate but not to elucidate completely this french mystery, accept this aphorism as a bad joke :

"A french man that requests a lesson about love, has been naturalized few days ago.
A french man that teaches a lesson about love, tells how it has been deflowered the same day."

And please, don't send it to "Edward I Koch" , my mother still love me a very little.

Safi

Arnie, Aug. 9, 2002

quote:

There is a taboo in many cultures world-wide about use of the left hand. The right hand is used for eating, the left is reserved for personal hygiene. It is considered bad form at the minimum to use the left hand for certain tasks. We see this to this day in our Western culture in the custom of shaking hands. It is considered rude to shake hands using the left.

Wordnerd, Aug. 16, 2002

quote:

The custom can be traced back to Egypt in 2800 B.C., but there is speculation of an earlier origin. In times when "might made right", two strangers coming upon each other unexpectedly would each draw his knife or dagger, to be at-the-ready if needed. If and when they concluded that they could be peaceable, each would sheathe his weapon and confirm this by displaying his empty weapon hand (the right hand) to the other. This is also suggested as the reason that women, never the bearers of weapons, never developed the handshake custom.

I've found one culture in which the left hand was offered in greeting. Offering the right hand was an insult and a challenge to fight. Quoting from Jack Nisbet's book, Sources of the River: Tracking David Thompson Across Western North America (Susquatch Books,1994):

quote:

A few days after the arrival of the warriors, Kootanae Appee himself paid a visit to the camp, leading a dark brown Spanish mule as a gift for Saukamappee so that the old man would no longer have to walk from camp to camp. Thompson, who was in the tent with his mentor, had heard many stories about the great war chief, but this was their first meeting. "He was apparently forty years of age and his height between six feet two to four inches, more formed for activity than strength yet well formed for either; his face a full oval, high forehead and nose somewhat aquiline; his large black eyes, and countenance, were open, frank but somewhat stern; he was a noble specimen of the Indian warrior of the great plains." When Kootenae Appee turned to greet Thompson, the awed teenager unwittingly committed a Piegan faux pas. "On entering the tent he gave me his left hand, and I gave him my right hand, upon which he looked at me and smiled as much as to say a contest would not be equal; at his going away the same took place." Saukamappee later cautioned his young guest that to the Blackfeet, the left hand was the hand of greeting, whereas offering the right—the hand that threw spears and pulled triggers—was an insult, and a challenge to fight: “If one of our people offers you his left hand, give him your left hand, for the right hand is no mark of friendship.”

Tinman

The Boy Scout handshake is always done with the left hand.

Wow, this was an old thread...Safi was with us only about a month in August of 2002. People come and go on forums, but sometimes you just don't forget some people. Safi was one of those.

quote:

The Boy Scout handshake is always done with the left hand.

It is? Worldwide? I think the boys and men here do the Boy Scout handshake with their right. I'll verify when my boy scouts wake up . . .